Why aren't there more modern black shotgun designs?

Yup, jparent's post nails it.

The real problem is not being allowed to leave em loaded. The 870 & 590a1 are essentially fine.

And I agree, the shogun is not as narrow a niche role as we're constantly told.

However, along with the squeegee in today's out of control legal climate one may want to consider keeping a shovel and pallet of lime bags on hand. It's sad how true that consideration is today.

jparent said:
Honestly, there's very little that can't be overcome with training.

The shotgun has a fairly niche role, but not as narrow as some would expect.

Ammo capacity, yes, but if you run out after 6-8 rounds, #### has gone seriously sideways. Gunfights don't go like the movies.

The biggest detractor for the standard pump/auto shotgun, in Canada is the legality of leaving the thing loaded, should you ever need to use it in a serious social engagement. A mag fed rifle is MUCH quicker to get into action when things go bump in the night. Getting 2 rounds in the thing (one in the chamber and one in the tube) is reasonably quick, but that's about it in an emergency. Loading a DP 12, UTAS? Forget it. Might as well load a SxS or O/U.

BUT, If i HAD to get in a gunfight in my hallway at 2:00am, a loaded 500/590 or 870 is a serious contender. IF i was forced to empty the thing, im probably dead anyway.


In a gunfight.

Pistols put holes in people (maybe)
Rifles put holes through people
Shotguns leave pieces of people on the floor, and you will have to call someone in to squeegee that #### up.
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A "redesign" I'd like to see with say the 870 are really just minor updates.

I'd like to see the mag tube threaded so you can replace it yourself and I'd like to see the hammer pin and ejector rivets user changeable. I realize these staking techniques may play a role in the 870's reliability however.

A good worked in Wingmaster, 870P, or 590a1 with minor upgrades will always be a force to be reckoned with in their kill zone. Despite the various attempts nothing is coming close to beating it.

And logistics are a very real consideration. Even though parts will typically always be a bit more difficult in Canada vs the US, the 870 parts logistics & support chain will never be topped. For that reason alone I will no longer bother with Turkish shotguns despite liking some of them. And really, they are not making any design headway.

I think the better approach to the question is "how do we realistically improve the 870" ? Yeah yeah, I know some of the QC problems, that's not what I'm, talking about.
 
Shotgun shell technology is very much maxed out. Started with brass hulls, paper, then plastic, and back to brass. You got lead shot, steel shot, plastic shot, slugs, sabots, flachet rounds, flares, explosive frag shells... etc.

If you need more out of a shotgun, get a rifle... or a grenade launcher ;)
 
It peaked with 870P, 590A1 and M4. There's nothing new anyway. The AR15 is 60 years old. The only advancements made in the last half century is in just the crap that gets bolted to guns.
 
The revolution would be to return to old school quality.

I'd love to see something like the Wingmaster or 870P done with modern machining but top end old school.

Then, offer it stripped down. Order it without a safety button (cuz you want a Vang Comp), offer it without a follower (because you want an S&J), offer it with out a sear & spring (cuz you want the Timney) etc. etc.

But the foundation would be top tier.

THAT would be revolutionary.
 
Hitting something that bleeds with a single OO buck round, is similar to (but more effective than) hitting it with a 9 round burst from an original Scorpion machine pistol (no one thinks that needs work)- so, if for some strange reason you're not allowed a Scorpion machine pistol, a 12 gauge is a good plan. The low ammo capacity needs to be viewed in that context - 5 rounds of OO roughly equals a 45 rounds in a Scorpion, with a much higher hit probability.

* before someone says that you have better effective range with a Scorpion, theoretically yes, but real world, no. It's much easier to hit with a shotgun.
** The folks who brought poison gas to World War 1 had an absolute fit when Americans showed up with shotguns, and complained that they were cruel and inhumane. That's a great indicator.
 
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dahs said:
It peaked with 870P, 590A1 and M4. There's nothing new anyway. The AR15 is 60 years old. The only advancements made in the last half century is in just the crap that gets bolted to guns.
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Well... the 870P is just a model of the 870. The 590A1 is just a model of the 500...

The point is, this:

Standard-Manufacturing-DP-12-Pump-Shotgun-Works-2-Package_100668319_92_5930005F1F6C6E1E.jpg


Is no more superior than this:

372188
 
Greenhorse six said:
To bad this didn't go any where , would of opened up new delivery systems .

http://www.guns.com/review/gun-review-tactical-12-intrepids-ras-12-video/
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Because "Assault rifle" type shotguns aren't all that practical. The USAS-12 is in very limited use. The awesome AA-12 isn't really used at all. With a basic shotgun you don't have to worry about bulky mags and a place to keep them. That's saves space for your primary "delivery system".

But if enjoy the novelty of just blasting stuff at the range the KSG, UTS-12, DP-12, and the likes will be just fine.
 
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BeaverMeat said:
Because "Assault rifle" type shotguns aren't all that practical. The USAS-12 is in very limited use. The awesome AA-12 isn't really used at all. With a basic shotgun you don't have to worry about bulky mags and a place to keep them.
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You need to look past the "Assault rifle " part , and look to how this type of ammo would improve box mag feeding in any platform , Box mags fed guns are quicker to load then a tube fed one .

and as far as the bulky mags go , shotgun ammo is bulky with or with out mags , that's part of the problem with any shotgun ammo , that and the rim case
 
Greenhorse six said:
You need to look past the "Assault rifle " part , and look to how this type of ammo would improve box mag feeding in any platform , Box mags fed guns are quicker to load then a tube fed one .

and as far as the bulky mags go , shotgun ammo is bulky with or with out mags , that's part of the problem with any shotgun ammo , that and the rim case
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I used "assault rifle" because it was shorter than saying pistol grip, semi-automatic, mag fed, shot gun. ;)

Still not a real game changer over the basic design. Name me one tactical combat or police scenario where a quick reloading semi-automatic shotgun is desired? If you have to clear a room full of bad guys why would you risk a man to go Rambo with a shotgun when you can solve the problem with a grenade?

That is why you see almost zero police/military interest in these types of shotgun platforms.
 
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I really don't know why anyone is singling out shotguns here.
Rifles haven't changed either.

Pretty much everyone uses an AR-15 for combat or competition.

These guns were used in the Vietnam War. So not exactly a new design.
 
BeaverMeat said:
I used "assault rifle" because it was shorter than saying pistol grip, semi-automatic, mag fed, shot gun. ;)

Still not a real game changer over the basic design. Name me one tactical combat or police situation where a quick reloading semi-automatic shotgun is desired?

The real world isn't like video games.
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Hee , Hee , Yeah , I should of just said "Platform" , I can't think of a single tactical combat or police situation where any shotgun would be preferred over a rifle aside from door breaching , maybe Riot control , but for every day , I got nothing , that's why everybody is going over to patrol rifles .

Even for the individual , like has been said here many times , if you need more then whats in the mag tube , you could be well and truly hooped .
 
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The mag fed shotguns are a great asset to Canadians, who have ill thought out, restrictive storage laws that we must comply with-simply because you can take them from empty to fully loaded in a moment.

This is especially useful in a rural environment as you can have magazines loaded with different ammunition to properly deal with the threat or nuisance at hand.

Bear in the yard causing trouble? Grab the mag of slugs. Cougar, wolf or coyote? Mag of buckshot. Raccon or weasel getting into the chicken coop? Load up the BB's or #2 shot. Crows or rodents? Grab the trap loads. I stuck a Surefire light on the end of mine (easy to do since it has a side rail) and now it's good to go day or night.

And if you decide that you don't need to shoot, just pop the magazine out- no need to work the action over and over to empty the shotgun.
 
Dexter Morgan said:
I really don't know why anyone is singling out shotguns here.
Rifles haven't changed either.

Pretty much everyone uses an AR-15 for combat or competition.

These guns were used in the Vietnam War. So not exactly a new design.
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This.

Firearms haven't improved in an incredibly long time.
 
Gatehouse said:
The mag fed shotguns are a great asset to Canadians, who have ill thought out, restrictive storage laws that we must comply with-simply because you can take them from empty to fully loaded in a moment.

This is especially useful in a rural environment as you can have magazines loaded with different ammunition to properly deal with the threat or nuisance at hand.

Bear in the yard causing trouble? Grab the mag of slugs. Cougar, wolf or coyote? Mag of buckshot. Raccon or weasel getting into the chicken coop? Load up the BB's or #2 shot. Crows or rodents? Grab the trap loads. I stuck a Surefire light on the end of mine (easy to do since it has a side rail) and now it's good to go day or night.

And if you decide that you don't need to shoot, just pop the magazine out- no need to work the action over and over to empty the shotgun.
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I agree. The only advantage is civilian use, predator control and the like... as for bears you better make sure it's 100% reliable. An AA-12 would work merciless for that role. lol
 
BeaverMeat said:
I agree. The only advantage is civilian use, predator control and the like... as for bears you better make sure it's 100% reliable. An AA-12 would work merciless for that role. lol
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An AA-12 would almost be unfair to the bear. I have 2 Turkish mag fed shotguns, a Derya and a MKA 1919, they both run well but you may need to experiment with ammo and make sure mags aren't damaged/ function properly. I've killed a number of problem bears with shotguns, I would have no problem grabbing one of these for the job.
 
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