Garrison Petawawa PR Clinic 24-25 March 2018 Debrief Here!!

MartyK2500 said:
Thanks

When it says PR1, can someone new that didn’t attend clinic attend?
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Yeah sure thing. We’ve been doing raw beginners for the past three seasons without a formal clinic so it’s all good.

Just look up any of the PR matches and their itinerary in these seasons: 2015,2016, and 2017.....it’s all good!!

Cheers, Barney
 
TacticalTeacher said:
Here comes the horror story....for decades we shot PR matches at the Connaught Ranges with DCRA NSCC styles. As the volunteer Butts Officer on my non-shooting relays, I would always receive a Shzt Load of challenges from frustrated Mil and Police snipers at the 800m stages...

The 168 gr SMK was travel at a subsonic velocity and would SLAP that 4 foot target...no SNAP sound of a supersonic booolit overhead. The issued 168’s would be yawing and also arriving sideways. Groups opened up an d shooters would get mad at me after I denied all their challenges for say, a higher value....
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This was the issue Norma Match ammo loaded with the 168 SMK, and with it's conservative muzzle velocity, and on a stinking hot, humid day was in the transonic zone before 800m. Didn't happen every day, but it happened more than enough to make life miserable for anyone shooting a C3 rifle.

I believe the general consensus is that the boat tail angle of the 168 SMK is too steep, and when it enters the transonic range makes is susceptible to stability issues. Groups may open up, or as it yaws and wobbles about it can loose velocity faster than it should and go subsonic sooner than it should.

Other clones of the 168 SMK would have the same problems.

The transonic range begins at about Mach 1.2 as the bullet speed drops below about 1340 fps, plus or minus.

That being said, I think the 167 Scenar is not a clone, and has a much shallower boat tail angle and should handle the transonic zone better than the 168 SMK. I suggest giving them a good try, and if they don't work, then I would gladly take them off your hands. I've seen factory Lapua ammo (167 Scenar) shoot crazy small groups out to 800m.

Otherwise, go lighter but faster, or heavier but slower. Lighter means less recoil, heavier means more recoil, so there is always this kind of trade off for you to decide on. Whatever works best for you and your style of shooting.

Couple of good reads here:

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2014/09/practical-thoughts-about-transonic-bullet-stability-and-accuracy/

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2015/10/the-transonic-zone-what-happens-to-bullet-stability-and-bc/

Take care,
Dave
 
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Shelldrake said:
This was the issue Norma Match ammo loaded with the 168 SMK, and with it's conservative muzzle velocity, and on a stinking hot, humid day was in the transonic zone before 800m. Didn't happen every day, but it happened more than enough to make life miserable for anyone shooting a C3 rifle.

I believe the general consensus is that the boat tail angle of the 168 SMK is too steep, and when it enters the transonic range makes is susceptible to stability issues. Groups may open up, or as it yaws and wobbles about it can loose velocity faster than it should and go subsonic sooner than it should.

Other clones of the 168 SMK would have the same problems.

The transonic range begins at about Mach 1.2 as the bullet speed drops below about 1340 fps, plus or minus.

That being said, I think the 168 Scenar is not a clone, and has a much shallower boat tail angle and should handle the transonic zone better than the 168 SMK. I suggest giving them a good try, and if they don't work, then I would gladly take them off your hands. I've seen factory Lapua ammo (167 Scenar) shoot crazy small groups out to 800m.

Otherwise, go lighter but faster, or heavier but slower. Lighter means less recoil, heavier means more recoil, so there is always this kind of trade off for you to decide on. Whatever works best for you and your style of shooting.

Couple of good reads here:

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2014/09/practical-thoughts-about-transonic-bullet-stability-and-accuracy/

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2015/10/the-transonic-zone-what-happens-to-bullet-stability-and-bc/

Take care,
Dave
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Thanks for the info. Being new to this long range stuff and just recently got back in to reloading after a 30yrs hiatus, I have been doing some research on what might work best. I have read some good things about the lapua 167gr scenar which is why I bought some. That being said, I only ordered 300 so after load development, zeroing and enough for the shoot itself, doubt there will be any left over:cool:
Still shopping for other 'stuff' and making my wife nuts. That too is part of the funcou:!!

cheers,
 
Gents,

WIth all this subsonic talk, how reliable are ballistic charts usually? With my current 223 load that I was planning on coming with, they will make it out to 800 yards before going subsonic. With this being said, I'm certain with more load development I can get an extra 200 ft/sec. Is it worth chasing? Or will I be fine for 600 yards?

Thanks
 
TurboTapin said:
Gents,

WIth all this subsonic talk, how reliable are ballistic charts usually? With my current 223 load that I was planning on coming with, they will make it out to 800 yards before going subsonic. With this being said, I'm certain with more load development I can get an extra 200 ft/sec. Is it worth chasing? Or will I be fine for 600 yards?

Thanks
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First of all , your #### won’t fall off.....

Yeah trust your calculator and it’s numbers. They are spooky accurate.... okay , that aside, what booolit are you launching out of your 223 chamber?

I’ve had piles of success sending the Hornady 75 gr Amax booolit out past 800m

All great fun....

Cheers, Barney
 
TacticalTeacher said:
First of all , your #### won’t fall off.....

Yeah trust your calculator and it’s numbers. They are spooky accurate.... okay , that aside, what booolit are you launching out of your 223 chamber?

I’ve had piles of success sending the Hornady 75 gr Amax booolit out past 800m

All great fun....

Cheers, Barney
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Haha perfect. I'm using 75gr Hornady Match(The original, non amax) at an MV of 2500ft/sec(Measured on a -30c day).
 
TacticalTeacher said:
First of all , your #### won’t fall off.....

Yeah trust your calculator and it’s numbers. They are spooky accurate.... okay , that aside, what booolit are you launching out of your 223 chamber?

I’ve had piles of success sending the Hornady 75 gr Amax booolit out past 800m

All great fun....

Cheers, Barney
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Laugh2Laugh2
 
Having read through this thread, and because this is the internet, I feel compelled to offer my unsolicited $0.02...

I've attended almost a dozen of Barney's clinics and matches since the very first one back at Yankee Range. The overarching piece of advice I could offer to the first-timers is
RUN WHAT YOU BRUNG!!!!
This is all about learning (and a helluva learning experience it is!). If all you have is a single shot hunting rifle, Norinco ammo, and the cheapest scope out there....bring it and shoot it! These clinics are designed to introduce you to PR (and PRS) matches and all the gear that that entails. You will meet a tonne of shooters with a wide range of experience and equipment that you can pick their brains, look through their optics, handle their rifles, dry fire their triggers, test their rear bags, etc...
Use the weekend to figure out the shortcomings in your setup, and decide what upgrades you need to make before the next match. There's no need to show up to the first clinic with the 100% solution (although the gun industry and Visa would be happy to help you out with that...ask Dr. Schmidt & Dr. Bender!).

A few specific points:

Ballistic Calculators: Grab an app or two and plug in your data and see what it spits out for solutions. Make sure you're diligent in your inputs because Garbage In = Garbage Out. All calculators should be identical within the 600m shot during the clinic. Also, since you're doing a walkback, you'll get actual "did hit" data vice the calculator's "should hit" data. Compare the results and see if they agree with each other. With the exception of Applied Ballistics (and their CDMs), most other calculators will give you the data to get on paper.

Kestrels: A nice to have, and will help you derive the Density Altitude (or atmospherics) for use in your calculator. The wind (at the shooter) will give you an initial wind call, but will require you to factor different winds throughout the flight of the bullet. At 600m on the ranges we shoot on, i've never used more than .1-.2mils of wind. There will be enough Kestrels out there to give everyone a good baseline to run their ballistic apps.

Bullets: Again, run what you've got. At 600m, 168gr bullets will do just fine. If you're building a load for longer than that, then there are better bullet choices and frankly, better calibers suited to that application. If you're doing load development before the clinic, run a ladder test or OCW and determine the nodes in your system to get the best load possible. Consistency is key.

If you want to show up with the 100% solution, head over to the "What the Pros Use" on the Precision Rifle Blog, and open up your wallet. The PR game relies on a tonne of support gear in addition to a consistent rifle, ammo, and shooter. Beyond a capable rifle and consistent ammo, bring your rice filled sock/rear bag, your coin-operated scope, and your internal 4rd box mag, and put some lead downrange! You'll quickly figure out where your money is best spent on buying the right gear for you, and there will be a bunch of great guys out there willing to answer all your questions.

Over time, your setup will evolve and tailor itself to your needs...I know my gear has been improved upon over the last 4-5yrs, and I'm still not at the final solution. Enjoy the clinic, and I hope to see you guys there!
 
^^^^Appreciate that input.

I have an AR platform specific for Service Rifle.

- Stainless Barrel.
- 5.56.
- Leopold MK4 MRT 2.5-8.

Is this a somewhat minimum of a platform for such a clinic?
 
A.T.R. said:
^^^^Appreciate that input.

I have an AR platform specific for Service Rifle.

- Stainless Barrel.
- 5.56.
- Leopold MK4 MRT 2.5-8.

Is this a somewhat minimum of a platform for such a clinic?
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In terms of seeing the target and firing an accurate round, I don't see an issue with that magnification range (and Barney swears by the Bushnell fixed-10x!). One downside may be seeing the hit indicators in the target at distance. This can be mitigated by the butts party using larger indicators and/or your partner spotting for you. The Mk4 is a solid optic regardless.
 
How about those fancy range bags that converts to a shooting mat.....where does one look for those ? any input on brand or quality ?
 
deckerhead said:
How about those fancy range bags that converts to a shooting mat.....where does one look for those ? any input on brand or quality ?
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Found a few on line. I am not going with any high end name brand stuff and read some nice reviews on the NC star bag. They are anywhere from $99 to $130.
 
Continuing with questions......what is everyone using for a "Rucksack, 3 day pack, Assault pack to carry your kit around the range" ? suggestions , comments , reviews would be appreciated and helpful .
 
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