Ambitious Project...Update.

Daver_II

Daver_II

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Updates at the bottom of the OP.

Hello everybody, as a number of you know I have been posting about a number of my DIY projects, and looking for some help along the way.
I am a regular guy, and am little more than an ambitious home tinkerer.... but I enjoy the challenge, and if you want to look up some of my former projects, check out my started threads. I am currently in development of a very ambitious project, and was hoping to get some help and feedback from the CGN community.

I am not willing to share details about my current project, Yet, but when the time comes, I will be posting information about it.

The short version of this project is, I am developing a firearm from the ground up.
It will be (hopefully) a Non-restricted, semi-automatic, multi-caliber option (.223 and 7.62x39 to start), multiple magazine capable (AR, AK, VZ), that takes a number of AR parts.
It will be user customizable, and the idea behind it is that I have implemented ideas from members of this community.

It will be a crowd-inspired, and personally developed, rifle.

So far, I have the basic design developed, and many hours of CAD work done. I have met with a few personal friends with gunsmith and machining experience, and will rely heavily on experts in the areas that I am not as knowledgeable. I have been 3d printing prototype parts on my home-built printer for weeks, but they are little more than physical confirmation of ideas.
So far my costs of development are pretty low.

I have borrowed several magazines from local CGNners, (Thank you NorlandGeese, and GunCrazy762), and will likely be asking for more help along the way for those so inclined to help out with parts, expertise, and time.

Obviously there are a number of issues I will have to deal with. I have to build a functional prototype, submit to the RCMP, Navigate patents issues, figure out potential manufacturing, and deal with hundreds of additional unknown potential issues.


I have weighed a few things, and unfortunately there will be some trade offs.

First, I do not have the design experience or a team to make complex things a reality yet... this is my first complex project, so things like complete ambidexterity is not part of the design at this time (no left side eject).

Second, It will not be a super lightweight rifle.... but after a prototype has been proven reliable, I will make efforts to lighten the rifle as much as possible while keeping the other design priorities.

I am placing higher priority on these areas:

1......Ease of manufacturing to keep costs down (less complex machining operations, less tool changes, etc.)
2...... Ambidextrous as possible with a mostly right-handed prioritization.
3...... Modern ergonomics.
4...... Part compatibility with accessories such as optics, grips, stocks, and any rail mounted accessory.
5...... Utilize non-proprietary parts (not high end parts... costs again).
6...... Ease of maintenance, and user ability to change parts.
7...... Reliability

Some areas I have placed less priority on, I am not saying I am ignoring these areas, but the first prototype and current design are not prioritizing them:

1...... Weight (not saying it will be heavy, but definitely won't be ultra-light)
2...... Size (I have limited design, manufacturing, prototyping, experience, so I have been erring on the side of caution with dimensions).


I will also be updating this thread with FAQ answers, details about the project as I feel comfortable releasing them, and other periodic updates. I will be responding to offers of help via PM to those that offer.


Now for the request for help...

If you have experience in firearm manufacturing and would be willing to have a phone conversation please PM me. Or if you are in manufacturing in Ottawa and would like to help me Please let me know... I would benefit greatly from understanding more about industrial manufacturing or seeing an industrial Machining or CNC setup (I only have DIY CNC experience now). Anyone that would be willing to mentor me in machining would be incredible.

And for the Wider audience:
Simply replying with a positive comment or you thoughts would be appreciated, but please do not hijack the thread.
If you have an idea that might help me or improve my design, please share, and join the discussion.

Here is a AK mag because every thread should have a picture.... but I will not post a picture of the design until I have protected it.

PKHwn3K.jpg




Update 1.

I had a great conversation with a Woman at the CFR - Firearms technical division.
Learned lot about the process of making a firearm at home, as well as a lot about the process in general.
She was even so kind as to send me an email with information about the classification process, and a few linked documents.

What I found most surprising was how encouraging, and supportive she was. I was expecting answers, but she provided a very pleasant conversation, and went out of her way to provide information and support.

Update 2

Well With the WK180-C effectively filling the role of less-expensive NR option, My project is pretty well torpedoed as a commercial option.

That said I will be continuing it as a learning experience and as a personal interest project.

I am not saying that I will not make it available later on (depending on how things go) but right now it is off the table.

Here is an update picture - intentionally over-contrasted to camouflage a few details. but it gives an idea of the direction I am going.


XV7EREs.jpg
 
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I'm very interested to see how this turns out. Your project sounds quite ambitious. I've had a few ideas kicking around in my head for a while myself. Unfortunately I decided to continue to sell my soul to the oilpatch a bit longer, until I can setup my own machine shop. I'm a mechanical engineering technologist (manufacturing option in 2nd year) and I have completed my first 2 years of machinist school. If you need someone to bounce ideas off, I'm more than willing to help. Or if you need to borrow some small firearms parts, I have a decent selection to choose from.

Cheers
 
Whatever you're working on, PLEASE don't go with an AR15-style charging handle. Left-hand or ambi charging, something on the left side like the modern hunter/modern varmint/xcr or forward ambi switchable like the acr/scorpion please!
 
CobraGT said:
Whatever you're working on, PLEASE don't go with an AR15-style charging handle. Left-hand or ambi charging, something on the left side like the modern hunter/modern varmint/xcr or forward ambi switchable like the acr/scorpion please!
Click to expand...

Thank you for your Comment,

I am not doing AR style charging.... The first version is a right side charging handle for simplicity.

Due to the necessity of machining an ejection opening, I have put the charging handle on the right side to avoid multiple machining processes.
Also, the charging handle is *currently* reciprocating, again to keep the complexity down, and potential costs down too.

This does not mean it is an overly simple design... Just that I am currently trying to avoid unnecessary complexity.
As the design improves, I will attempt to incorporate more features, but features = expense.
 
Daver_II said:
Thank you for your Comment,

I am not doing AR style charging.... The first version is a right side charging handle for simplicity.

Due to the necessity of machining an ejection opening, I have put the charging handle on the right side to avoid multiple machining processes.
Also, the charging handle is *currently* reciprocating, again to keep the complexity down, and potential costs down too.

This does not mean it is an overly simple design... Just that I am currently trying to avoid unnecessary complexity.
As the design improves, I will attempt to incorporate more features, but features = expense.
Click to expand...

Right side charging is fine for rifles with traditional stocks. However, if you're designing a rifle with a pistol grip, like an AR, it is much better to have a left hand charging handle. With a traditional stock, you would normally hold the rifle with the left hand holding the forestock and charging with the right hand. With pistol grip stocked rifles, you normally hold the rifle with right hand on the pistol grip and charge with left. This is for right-handed shooters of course. I'm not saying that it can't be done, charging withe right hand, on a pistol grip stock, but it is counter intuitive and definitely slower.
 
RifleDude said:
Right side charging is fine for rifles with traditional stocks. However, if you're designing a rifle with a pistol grip, like an AR, it is much better to have a left hand charging handle. With a traditional stock, you would normally hold the rifle with the left hand holding the forestock and charging with the right hand. With pistol grip stocked rifles, you normally hold the rifle with right hand on the pistol grip and charge with left. This is for right-handed shooters of course. I'm not saying that it can't be done, charging withe right hand, on a pistol grip stock, but it is counter intuitive and definitely slower.
Click to expand...

Yes, I am aware of the of the difficulties of charging on the right side. My ultimate goal is to work toward a piston system, with ACR style right or left charging.

I am not personally of XCR or MH charging handle location.
 
CobraGT said:
Whatever you're working on, PLEASE don't go with an AR15-style charging handle. Left-hand or ambi charging, something on the left side like the modern hunter/modern varmint/xcr or forward ambi switchable like the acr/scorpion please!
Click to expand...

+1... million!

But, if it's simpler for you to do that for the RCMP sample, I think you can do it. When it's approved, changing the charging handle location later on shouldnt change it's classification. (ie if it take two years to clear the RCMP labs, you can use that time to R&D a better charging system while you wait).

My 0.000000002 bitcoins :)
 
MH is akin to the FN-FAL, foldout handle on a left side slide.
Simplest is a CH attached to the bolt carrier, like an AK, or AR-18. Might be permanently attached or removable. This requires a slot; if ambi, two slots - like the M10X. CH slot can also be part of the ejection opening.
Just about every possible system has been tried at one time or another. Same with the bolt system - rotating, tipping, flaps, rollers, blocks, mechanical disadvantages. Goes on and on.
Most designs take what have proven to be the best features previously used. Look at what works. Can it be improved?
If you don't make everything in-house, things must be out-sourced. Control of quality and delivery? Use already available bits, or unique pieces?
Lots of horror stories resulting from out-sourcing.
 
1......Ease of manufacturing to keep costs down (less complex machining operations, less tool changes, etc.)
2...... Ambidextrous as possible with a mostly right-handed prioritization.
3...... Modern ergonomics.
4...... Part compatibility with accessories such as optics, grips, stocks, and any rail mounted accessory.
5...... Utilize non-proprietary parts (not high end parts... costs again).
6...... Ease of maintenance, and user ability to change parts.
7...... Reliability
Click to expand...
You project sounds similar to the Jard J48 with the exception of point 7.
1.) If you want a rifle for the masses this will be key
2.) Only 10% of the population is left handed
3.) Excellent, but don't sacrifice point 1
4.) Excellent it supports point 1
5.) As above
6.) Accessorizing is important, but I think most guys will just change a couple key components that they care about (ie stock, hand guard or trigger) Use the KISS principal here.
7.) This is very important see the J48 as an example of something that met most of your requirements above, but had problems.

I think this is an excellent project and wish you all the success in the world.
 
Ohno said:
You project sounds similar to the Jard J48 with the exception of point 7.
1.) If you want a rifle for the masses this will be key
2.) Only 10% of the population is left handed
3.) Excellent, but don't sacrifice point 1
4.) Excellent it supports point 1
5.) As above
6.) Accessorizing is important, but I think most guys will just change a couple key components that they care about (ie stock, hand guard or trigger) Use the KISS principal here.
7.) This is very important see the J48 as an example of something that met most of your requirements above, but had problems.

I think this is an excellent project and wish you all the success in the world.
Click to expand...

Thank you for the feedback,

I agree that the J48 does sound like a similar project, but I think mine is better looking.

I wish I could post the images of what I have so far, but I think it better to wait until I look into what protections I need first.

it is so very difficult to keep it simple.... and minimize the manufacture process.. and keep the part count low...

The last thing I need is to have 100+ parts to make... but one complex part is better than 10 simples ones.... but 5 simple cheap ones is better than 1 expensive one.
The never ending circle....
 
Something else to keep in mind...
If these are going to be going to other folks, not just a personal DIY, you are going to need liability coverage.
You will also need to do destructive testing, take a number of units to the point of destruction, insure that the design will protect the user. .300B does get shot in 5.56 rifles. You wouldn't think so, but it happens.
 
tiriaq said:
Something else to keep in mind...
If these are going to be going to other folks, not just a personal DIY, you are going to need liability coverage.
You will also need to do destructive testing, take a number of units to the point of destruction, insure that the design will protect the user. .300B does get shot in 5.56 rifles. You wouldn't think so, but it happens.
Click to expand...

That is a very good point. So far, I haven't put much thought I to failure points, but I am trying to use standard AR barrels and bolts (not the carrier though)

My design is built stronger than an AR. Due to material thickness but I will look at failure testing if the time comes.

And yes. Liability coverage is a good idea if it does progress to a commercial venture.
 
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