Mannlichers....

[New Camper]

Not to derail the thread but how are the butterknife bolt handles to live with... worst case scenario say, if you get a stiff case to extract?

They look fabulous, as do the Mannlicher stocks but I have yet to secure any rifles that boast these features. Though I'd consider "butterknifeing" the bolt handles on a hog-back with schnabel grip, or enhance the appearance of a Remington Seven.

 

[chasseur]

X

 

[catnthehatt]

Not to derail the thread but how are the butterknife bolt handles to live with... worst case scenario say, if you get a stiff case to extract?

They look fabulous, as do the Mannlicher stocks but I have yet to secure any rifles that boast these features. Though I'd consider "butterknifeing" the bolt handles on a hog-back with schnabel grip, or enhance the appearance of a Remington Seven.

Never had any issues with any butter knife bolt handle I have owned, and although the 1903 Mannlichers are not the fastest bolt action around they sure are the smoothest.
Cat

 

[catnthehatt]

I have one with a factory left hand stock.

WOW! I can only assume it is a right hand bolt though, not a left handed rifle?
Cat

 

[AP]

Tikka M-65 fullstock 6.5x55

Looks like an M65 Trapper that someone has grafted (very nicely!) an extension onto the regular stock

 

[Sakoman .308]

A fine collection indeed OP, congratulations!

 

[gunrunner100]

WOW! I can only assume it is a right hand bolt though, not a left handed rifle?
Cat

You are correct. Still easy for a right handed person to use, just no rollover.

 

[Rob]

Looks like an M65 Trapper that someone has grafted (very nicely!) an extension onto the regular stock

Yes, but that "someone" was the factory. This is not a custom rifle. And although rare, its not the only one. Here is another one from a 2104 Danish auction: http://www.lauritz.com/en/auction/fu...x-55/i3898178/) I don't know if any were imported into Canada back in the 80's. This one came in very recently, direct from Scandinavia.

Most Scandinavian "Kokotukki", "Stutzen", "Mannlicher-type" or full-stock rifles were made using a two-piece stock. Sako and Husqvarna full-stocks were almost always made from two pieces of wood, sometimes from the same blank and often (but not always) with the grain so well matched that its hard to tell. This helped avoid warping (and therefore accuracy) problems sometimes associated with full-stocks. On this particular rifle the barrel is free-floated for its entire length with a rubber pressure pad under the muzzle at the muzzle cap. Now that I have the correct front sight (thanks to gunnutz) and also now that the weather has warmed up a bit, I'll take it out to the range. I have a steel Swarovski 8X50 that I will put on it from time to time it but I primarily want to shoot it with iron sights.

 

[AP]

Yes, but that "someone" was the factory. This is not a custom rifle. And although rare, its definitely not the only one. Here is another one from a 2104 Danish auction: http://www.lauritz.com/en/auction/fu...x-55/i3898178/) I don't know if any were imported to Canada back in the 80's. This one came in recently, direct from Scandinavia.

Most Scandinavian "Kokotukki", "Stutzen", "Mannlicher-type" or full-stock rifles were made using a two-piece stock. Sako and Husqvarna full-stocks were almost always made from two pieces of wood, sometimes from the same blank and often with the grain so well matched that its hard to tell. This helped avoid warping (and therefore accuracy) problems sometimes associated with full-stocks. On this particular rifle the barrel is free-floated for its entire length with a rubber pressure pad under the muzzle at the muzzle cap.

Now that I have the correct front sight (thanks to gunnutz) and now that the weather has warmed up a bit, I'll take it out to the range. I have a steel Swarovski 8X50 that I will put on it from time to time it but primarily want to shoot it with iron sights.

Well I cant argue who did that but it seems uncharacteristically inelegant for Tikka - no barrel band to hide/obscure the very obvious joint and no muzzle cap to provide additional security to the forend tip. ... as Sako does. And its not like Tikka normally cheaps out on these sorts of things - I have a ‘Battue’ Tikka M65 from the same period and the small touches are very carefully done ... like the extended skeletonized rear ramp sight. IDK ... just seems out of character to what I am familiar with on the later M65’s. Currently have a pair of Sako ‘mannlicher’ stocked Sako’s - 375H&H & .243W. Well regardless of my idea of aesthetics it is still a extraordinary rifle as those of us with M65’s know and that one is mint in a wonderful calibre. A guy could happily live the rest of his life with one rifle - if that was the rifle (and he didnt loose the magazine)

 

[Rob]

Well I cant argue who did that but it seems uncharacteristically inelegant for Tikka - no barrel band to hide/obscure the very obvious joint and no muzzle cap to provide additional security to the forend tip. ... as Sako does. And its not like Tikka normally cheaps out on these sorts of things - I have a ‘Battue’ Tikka M65 from the same period and the small touches are very carefully done ... like the extended skeletonized rear ramp sight. IDK ... just seems out of character to what I am familiar with on the later M65’s. Currently have a pair of Sako ‘mannlicher’ stocked Sako’s - 375H&H & .243W. Well regardless of my idea of aesthetics it is still a extraordinary rifle as those of us with M65’s know and that one is mint in a wonderful calibre. A guy could happily live the rest of his life with one rifle - if that was the rifle (and he didnt loose the magazine)

What do you mean "no muzzle cap"? It has a fairly large steel muzzle cap...and its very nicely fitted. Maybe you can't see it correctly in the photos. Here's another picture (below).

No barrel band? Good. Yes they look nice, but those things were never very conducive to accuracy (especially since the sling attaches to them and they usually bear a bit on the barrel)...I have a half dozen Sako fullstocks, all pre-1970, because I sold off all my post-1970 Sako fullstocks that replaced them when Sako went to the bulky stocks and much heavier barrels (I suppose in an attempt to reduce recoil and keep accuracy) ...Around 1970 weight jumped by at least 1.5 lb. in all the fullstock carbines, often even more.

If you want to hide the two-piece joint, I think the nicest solution was probably Husqvarna's. I've know HVA owners who didn't even realize their rifle stock was made in two pieces. Unfortunately Husqvarna wood was always prone to cracking. I've owned a lot of them and I'd say that 75% had a crack either behind the recoil lug or behind the tang. Some claim that HVA never seasoned the wood correctly.

"Inelegant"? I've never thought of any Tikka rifle as being particularly "elegant". (My Mannlicher-Schoenauer carbines might have some "elegance".) I actually like the way Tikka honestly owns up to using the two-piece fullstock. After all, its nothing to be ashamed of, especially in a winterized rifle (the roomy trigger guard and large bolt knob are two other winter features...well designed for thick gloves.) These old M55/65 Tikkas are a bit clunky, a bit over-built and that's what I admire about them. I also like the M-65 bolt...with its 5 (five!) locking lugs! Two lugs at the front, two (safety?) lugs at the back, plus the bolt handle locking into the notch. Overbuilt all the way.

(I note that John Walter in his book Rifles of the World, claims that the M65 is "little more than a model 55 enlarged" and that the M55 has only two lugs plus the bolt handle base...apparently he either never actually looked at a real M65 or perhaps Tikka on the later M65 rifles dispensed with the two rear lugs, just like Sako did...)

 

[AP]

I think I was able to see the muzzle before but this is a good photo - I consider the steel cap on this M65 a 'fore end cap' while a 'muzzle cap' in my mind is as Sako provides and encircles the muzzle as well as caps the fore end. I dont think my terminology is unusual as Frank deHaas in his description of the 1903 M-S uses the same terminology (forend cap). You may be right about the Sako carbine weights but nobody that has swung my 243W has had anything but positive comments about the handling and balance ... conversely ... no-one who has held and fired the .375H&H 'mannlicher' has expressed a desire for a lighter rifle -- or a need for more accuracy ! But the weight seems to balance well in these shorter barreled rifles and are a surprising delight to people who have never held a 'carbine' length firearm.

What you have is an extremely interesting rifle. Speaking of deHaas ... he was also impressed with these Tikka's .... but afaik he only reported his examination of the 'Ithaca' distributed rifles which (in my experience) dont have wood as nice as the Tikka versions.... like yours.

 

[Rob]

Took my little ruger .22 RSI out for a snowshoe the other day. We got a little snow!!

Great Canadian "Mannlicher" photo.

 

[Rob]

I think I was able to see the muzzle before but this is a good photo - I consider the steel cap on this M65 a 'fore end cap' while a 'muzzle cap' in my mind is as Sako provides and encircles the muzzle as well as caps the fore end. I dont think my terminology is unusual as Frank deHaas in his description of the 1903 M-S uses the same terminology (forend cap). You may be right about the Sako carbine weights but nobody that has swung my 243W has had anything but positive comments about the handling and balance ... conversely ... no-one who has held and fired the .375H&H 'mannlicher' has expressed a desire for a lighter rifle -- or a need for more accuracy ! But the weight seems to balance well in these shorter barreled rifles and are a surprising delight to people who have never held a 'carbine' length firearm.

What you have is an extremely interesting rifle. Speaking of deHaas ... he was also impressed with these Tikka's .... but afaik he only reported his examination of the 'Ithaca' distributed rifles which (in my experience) dont have wood as nice as the Tikka versions.... like yours.

Here are a couple of .308 Sako carbines: an L579 Forester made around 1970 and an AII made around 1981. They are the two on the right in the photos with a .243 from 1966 on the left. The older .308 is the one with the glossy stock. This earlier .308 carbine weighs 6 lb. 6 oz. (the same as the .243) and the slightly later AII .308 weighs 7 lb. 6 oz. , an entire pound more. It has a heavier barrel and the thicker "square" stock. I could balance them out by putting a one pound scope on the earlier rifle and a receiver peep sight on the later version, but in the end I sold off all my post-1970 Sakos. There is just no comparison in handling with the earlier rifles.

Dramatic Sako weight and bulk increase occurs right around 1970.

 

[Rob]

Apparently they still make a Tikka (T3) Stutzen rifle.

I see this one for sale on a French site,...expensive.
(http://www.armurerie1000etangs.com/...u-tikka-t3-battue-7x64-neuve-006457,2956.html)

I've never seen one for sale in Canada though and the Canadian importer (stoegercanada) tells me that it was "probably" only made for France.
Not sure I'd want one anyway. That overly long contrasting wood schnabel forend cap is a real snout. And it kind of ruins it for me.

 

[Rob]

A few nice new Stutzen rifles that we will never see on this side of the pond.
I note that none seem to have steel forend caps, just contrasting wood schnabel ends.

 

[chasseur]

There is a nice mauser 98 mannlicher in 250-3000 with a bolt peep sight for sale at the Gun Dealer in Nb Pricy but nice

 

[Rob]

There is a nice mauser 98 mannlicher in 250-3000 with a bolt peep sight for sale at the Gun Dealer in Nb Pricy but nice

Yes, that's a seriously stiff price. I've owned several nice original Oberndorf sporters, including a Model S Stutzen and they never cost me anywhere near that price. I guess the premium price is because of the rare short action. I never thought the build quality (aka fit and finish) on the Oberndorf 98 sporters was anything all that special, although of course they do stand out in comparison to military Mauser 98s. It might be worth it to some collectors because of the short action. I understand that rarity is a plus but so is originality and the non-original bolt handle and recoil pad ruin it for me. And that's just the modifications that I can see in the photos. Doesn't look like it has set triggers, or maybe it has one removed. I may drive over to have a look..its only about a half hour drive from here.

It should look more like this:

 

[9.3mauser]

Looks like the fixed standing rear sight blade has been filed off as well. I would agree, overpriced for what you're getting.

 

[chasseur]

The rear sight is not filed off just two leafs that are folded down on each side to facilitate the use of the bolt peep.price is high I expect do it being a consignment gun and the shop is going to take a cut

 

[Rob]

So I went and had a look at it and its even worse than I thought. It does have a poorly finished replacement bolt handle and an after market recoil pad (so its missing the folding trap steel buttplate with the Mauser emblem). The bore would rate as good. It has a single trigger. The rear sight permanent middle leaf (100) is indeed ground off. (Yes, two leafs fold, but there is supposed to be a third permanent standing leaf between the two.) The real bad news is that it is also drilled and tapped for scope mounts. On the front receiver ring they are drilled right through the Mauser emblem. Its a nice little short action and I know the 250-3000 is especially rare in the carbines, but as a collectors item I can't see it being worth the asking price. Not in its present condition. I suppose it could be used as the basis for a custom rifle, but would a rifle maker pay $4999.99. just to salvage a short Mauser receiver?