Mccabee or WK180?

[Horse96]

Anyway, I am sure that there are many details that I can't see without fully assessing Maccabee's financial statements and their production facilities. I can not tell how much it costs to machine the rail slot over the common practice of conventional ar upper and lower halves. Don't get me wrong, I have a BCL and have pre-ordered an SLR. They are, in my opinion, platforms that allow a wide array of parts that I can change out to get the rifle to shoot how I want. That kind of customization isn't cheap, but IMO, they are the platforms that can offer the greatest accuracy potential (something that is of extreme importance to me) of any of the NR semi's on the CDN market.

My point more is that 'performance' semi-auto's hover at around $1,000, in Canada. The $400 extra profit, which actually is defined as an 'economic profit' or a 'super-normal profit' (retrieved from http://www.economicsonline.co.uk/Business_economics/Profits.html). The super-profit exists due to the structure of our laws, and my point was that manufacturers have been adapting and innovating, and that over time as more competitors enter the field to get their chunk of both regular profit and super-profit, prices will get lower. So, we are at the expensive beginning point in terms of the product's life-cycle, and as more firms see the super-profit's being made (and from which capital costs are recovered), more firms will enter the market. Resulting in lowered costs for performance products for us shooters than we paid when there was, maybe one or two choices that we could make.

So, before stating that 'people' are spreading ignorant or information full of malice, you may want to avoid such traps yourself and fully understand what 'people' are saying... Just a thought, or, do what you like. It's a free country and we are entitled to our opinions. I support your right to an opinion.

 

[beltfed]

Lots of mis-information being presented here, hopefully because of ignorance rather than malice, but let's address some of the comments.

SLR pricing is "extortion" - Really? If you don't like the price don't pay. Nobody is forcing you to purchase.

"An US made AR15 billet set is cheaper, therefore MDI is making the difference in profit" . Well, this opinion is not based on fact and relies heavily on conjecture.

Let's look at some facts.

MDI is doing relatively small scale production based solely on a Canadian niche product. Smaller production means higher per unit costs. Trying to compare US production prices to Canadian is facile, ATRS makes a billet AR receiver set that retails for about $950. The SLR, has a smaller potential market than any US made billet receiver set.

The SLR is a more expensive design to manufacture. Buying an MDI set gets you the upper, the lower and the trigger module (more pieces). The upper and lower are mated using an interrupted rail rather than take down pins. This requires more precise machining over more areas of the receivers to ensure fit is precise, and rattling/wobbling is not present. The more precision machining required, the higher the production costs.

MDI started with the premise that they were going to build more accurate products, using the best materials. Their receiver parts are 7075-T6 aluminum because it is stronger that 6061. It also costs more to purchase and machine. Their concern over accuracy is reflected in their machining tolerances too. Their production plan is to have machining tolerance of the critical components to greater precision that most other manufacturers consider economical. MDI was concerned about making their guns fit this precisely so that the components will not rattle, wobble of otherwise detract from the precision feel of the rifle.

All this to say, MDI is making a high quality product, and most owners will get exactly what they are hoping to get. MDI could certainly have built to looser tolerances, used cheaper materials, and built a cheaper product, but they chose not to. These were marketing decisions, and while they may not appeal to everyone, they certainly do not represent extortion or price gouging. Nor are you going to see price drops to stay competitive. Their product is unique, but fills a specific niche and is going to be built to quite different standards.

I agree, extortion was a poor choice of words. Look, I have no personal grudge against MDI or CSC. There is no question that some of the attributes to the SLR receiver, be it low numbers, manufacture in Canada, cost of raw material, etc. will raise pricing, but by the same token, none of these facts you’ve presented legitimizes the $1000 cost for two machined and anodized pieces of Aluminum. I’m not a paying customer, so neither you or MacAbee owe me or I suppose anyone any rationale for the retail pricing structure that has been established. People pony up or they don’t - such is life.

SLR - Existing FRT
BCL future offering - No FRT
ATRS future offering - No FRT

and even the new uber inexpensive WK-180 - No FRT

A lot of claims that FRT should be approved in XX weeks/months.
Big hopes about a government department that sits often for years on issuing an FRT.

I would bet on what has an FRT.

The SLR.

Moe

This has been addressed. The FaRT isn’t law, as much as the RCMP would like you to believe it is.
Regardless the WR product will be covered under the existing AR-180 frt.

The only people I can see opting out of the SLR pre-order in favor of the WK180-C are a few people who just wanted a cheaper NR blaster. Most likely people who were going to gut a Norinco and end up with a $1500 bullet hose. People who actually have a build in mind like my A2 type build or people who want a high quality build with high quality components are still going to follow through and get the SLR.

Here we go again with this stigma that somehow because something is priced accordingly or is inexpensive it must be inferior.
Here’s a news flash for you: the AR receiver is nothing more than a case.
It neither aids or hiders the accuracy or reliability of the rifle, whether that receiver set is $199 or $999.

If you want to support a company that is obviously bending you over the barrel - and you justify it either by saying you are supporting a local Canadian company or that you admire their ingenuity or business acumen, or whatever it is that helps you sleep at night; that’s great and all the power to you...but don’t sell this line that due to costs it is somehow a superior product - that is just nonsense.

 

[cr5]

My point more is that 'performance' semi-auto's hover at around $1,000, in Canada. The $400 extra profit, which actually is defined as an 'economic profit' or a 'super-normal profit' (retrieved from http://www.economicsonline.co.uk/Business_economics/Profits.html). The super-profit exists due to the structure of our laws, and my point was that manufacturers have been adapting and innovating, and that over time as more competitors enter the field to get their chunk of both regular profit and super-profit, prices will get lower. So, we are at the expensive beginning point in terms of the product's life-cycle, and as more firms see the super-profit's being made (and from which capital costs are recovered), more firms will enter the market. Resulting in lowered costs for performance products for us shooters than we paid when there was, maybe one or two choices that we could make.

What "performance" semi auto can you buy for $1000? All you're buying with the SLR for $1000 is the upper and lower receiver.

While I do agree with the comment from CSC saying if you don't like the price don't buy it, no one is forcing you to do anything. It is priced where it is because that's what they know they can sell them for.

 

[cr5]

Here we go again with this stigma that somehow because something is priced accordingly or is inexpensive it must be inferior.
Here’s a news flash for you: the AR receiver is nothing more than a case.
It neither aids or hiders the accuracy or reliability of the rifle, whether that receiver set is $199 or $999.

If you want to support a company that is obviously bending you over the barrel - and you justify it either by saying you are supporting a local Canadian company or that you admire their ingenuity or business acumen, or whatever it is that helps you sleep at night; that’s great and all the power to you...but don’t sell this line that due to costs it is somehow a superior product - that is just nonsense.

My comments about the 180 being an entry level rifle are based on actually handling products from Kodiak. If they are making a rifle for $1000 I can guarantee that the fit and finish will leave a little to be desired. At the same time though, that doesn't mean it will be an inferior product other than cosmetically it will be lacking. If they can make a reliable product I'm sure it will do well since there are a lot of guys on tight budgets that really want to get into the non restricted black rifle game and at $1000 the WK180 fits the glass shoe for them.
If it can be modded with AR barrels, handguards, stocks, and grips it will also spill over into the gun cases of more experienced shooters and guys who just want something new to play lego with.

We have more options that we've had in a long time, this is a good thing and it doesn't need to be made into a competition between the upcoming options. Many people will probably end up with each option. I for one already have five non restricted black rifles and there is always room for more in my collection.

 

[Duncan71]

I for one an a real supporter of Maccabee. I don’t think $1000 is too much.

I would be interested to know - how much they a clearing on each receiver. After all - they need to make money. So what does it reasonable cost for labour and materials on these things? How much should a retailer make to justify costs. My understanding is that by the time everyone gets a piece of the pie we’ve paid at least double on most consumer products. I’d imagine it costs at least $500 in expenses to make these receivers... so I’m ok with the cost.

 

[Shooting Centre]

Anyway, I am sure that there are many details that I can't see without fully assessing Maccabee's financial statements and their production facilities. I can not tell how much it costs to machine the rail slot over the common practice of conventional ar upper and lower halves. Don't get me wrong, I have a BCL and have pre-ordered an SLR. They are, in my opinion, platforms that allow a wide array of parts that I can change out to get the rifle to shoot how I want. That kind of customization isn't cheap, but IMO, they are the platforms that can offer the greatest accuracy potential (something that is of extreme importance to me) of any of the NR semi's on the CDN market.

My point more is that 'performance' semi-auto's hover at around $1,000, in Canada. The $400 extra profit, which actually is defined as an 'economic profit' or a 'super-normal profit' (retrieved from http://www.economicsonline.co.uk/Business_economics/Profits.html). The super-profit exists due to the structure of our laws, and my point was that manufacturers have been adapting and innovating, and that over time as more competitors enter the field to get their chunk of both regular profit and super-profit, prices will get lower. So, we are at the expensive beginning point in terms of the product's life-cycle, and as more firms see the super-profit's being made (and from which capital costs are recovered), more firms will enter the market. Resulting in lowered costs for performance products for us shooters than we paid when there was, maybe one or two choices that we could make.

So, before stating that 'people' are spreading ignorant or information full of malice, you may want to avoid such traps yourself and fully understand what 'people' are saying... Just a thought, or, do what you like. It's a free country and we are entitled to our opinions. I support your right to an opinion.

Nice come back. Super profit is not what you originally posted. Yes Canadian laws do affect pricing. So do manufacturing processes, quality control processes, materials used and many other things.

 

[Shooting Centre]

I agree, extortion was a poor choice of words. Look, I have no personal grudge against MDI or CSC. There is no question that some of the attributes to the SLR receiver, be it low numbers, manufacture in Canada, cost of raw material, etc. will raise pricing, but by the same token, none of these facts you’ve presented legitimizes the $1000 cost for two machined and anodized pieces of Aluminum. I’m not a paying customer, so neither you or MacAbee owe me or I suppose anyone any rationale for the retail pricing structure that has been established. People pony up or they don’t - such is life.



This has been addressed. The FaRT isn’t law, as much as the RCMP would like you to believe it is.
Regardless the WR product will be covered under the existing AR-180 frt.



Here we go again with this stigma that somehow because something is priced accordingly or is inexpensive it must be inferior.
Here’s a news flash for you: the AR receiver is nothing more than a case.
It neither aids or hiders the accuracy or reliability of the rifle, whether that receiver set is $199 or $999.

If you want to support a company that is obviously bending you over the barrel - and you justify it either by saying you are supporting a local Canadian company or that you admire their ingenuity or business acumen, or whatever it is that helps you sleep at night; that’s great and all the power to you...but don’t sell this line that due to costs it is somehow a superior product - that is just nonsense.

So you have no idea what it costs to produce but it is too much. Nice logic

Also FWIW the FRT for the AR180 is prohibited. I suspect you mean AR 180B. This conclusion is likely but not guaranteed.

 

[Gatehouse]

I for one an a real supporter of Maccabee. I don’t think $1000 is too much.

I would be interested to know - how much they a clearing on each receiver. After all - they need to make money. So what does it reasonable cost for labour and materials on these things? How much should a retailer make to justify costs. My understanding is that by the time everyone gets a piece of the pie we’ve paid at least double on most consumer products. I’d imagine it costs at least $500 in expenses to make these receivers... so I’m ok with the cost.

I actually don't even care if it only cost them $2 to make a receiver set.

I want one, nobody else is selling the same product, and I can't make one myself.

I don't have a problem paying people for their skills or their work and especially their innovation.

 

[Betty-Lou]

X2 ^^^^^

 

[beltfed]

So you have no idea what it costs to produce but it is too much. Nice logic

Also FWIW the FRT for the AR180 is prohibited. I suspect you mean AR 180B. This conclusion is likely but not guaranteed.

No, I have an idea of what they cost to produce, but I think the retail pricing of them is exorbitant.
Yes. The B model. obviously.

 

[Duncan71]

I actually don't even care if it only cost them $2 to make a receiver set.

I want one, nobody else is selling the same product, and I can't make one myself.

I don't have a problem paying people for their skills or their work and especially their innovation.

Lol. Yea... I’m not sure if I could stomach 2 bucks. But like I said, even if they are walking with $500 bucks profit(and I highly doubt they are) I’m happy. Good for them - I hope they get rich. Take that money and bring something else cool to market. Capitalism!

No, I have an idea of what they cost to produce, but I think the retail pricing of them is exorbitant.
Yes. The B model. obviously.

Enlighten us. Genuinely curious.

 

[drifter dave]

It's going to come down to barrel selection on either rifle.
Put the same trigger and barrel in both platforms and show the results.
I'd like to see the effect of superior receiver tolerances and grade of aluminium on the accuracy.

 

[Scotty454]

It's going to come down to barrel selection on either rifle.
Put the same trigger and barrel in both platforms and show the results.
I'd like to see the effect of superior receiver tolerances and grade of aluminium on the accuracy.

Lol superior material isn't going to affect short term accuracy. It's going to affect long term reliability and durability.

 

[Fisselig]

I was really tempted to drop my pre-order of my SLR but I decided to keep it AND save up for the WK180. Reason being is that I want an NR semi auto hunting rifle in 6.5 Grendel that I can customize to my heart's content (and if I ever want to switch to a different caliber all I need is a barrel and bolt).
At the same time, having a .223 plinker that's NR and inexpensive is also a winner, because I can shoot it at the range or in the woods whenever I feel like it.

 

[cr5]

Lol, funny how a simple question about the type of aluminum used has stirred up the shartstorm it has. 6061 and 7075 are both used extensively in the manufacture of AR-15's depending on the brand of receiver and they both last longer than 90% of civilians need to worry about.
7075 is simply a slightly harder alloy and is quite a bit more expensive but both it and 6061 are more than adequate for the construction of a receiver for an AR type rifle. Once anodized the surface hardness is plenty hard enough to endure the bolt carrier riding back and forth. We also don't know if they are manufacturing the 180 with steel inserts inside the upper receiver similar to how the 180B has inside the stamped upper for the carrier and cam pin.

You guys are worrying about nothing. Don't let the internet talk you into it being a problem. Under normal conditions you probably can't put enough ammo through the 180 to wear it out in 10 years, some really heavy shooters might be able to but after that much ammo you'll definitely have gotten your money's worth out of the rifle.
Has anyone asked about what the warranty is on the 180WC? With Wolverine behind them I'd bet they would replace it for free if you ever wear it out.

 

[jiffx2781]

.....Has anyone asked about what the warranty is on the 180WC? With Wolverine behind them I'd bet they would replace it for free if you ever wear it out.

I hope you didn't bet too much. This is from the first page of the WK180-C questions and answers page;

Warranty: All WK180-C rifles will carry a full one year warranty against defective material and workmanship. All warranty will be carried out by Kodiak Defence.

So basically they've left us on our own. As long as their focus is on building rifles that work and not rifles that require a lifetime warranty, I honestly don't care.

 

[CRBurton]

In still waiting to hear what the bolt and carrier are made from. Also still no answer on what the pins and firing pin are made from. These materials will tell us alot about the design and it's durability.

 

[Vigilant]

I'm in the camp of neither.

The SLR set is too rich for my blood for being just a receiver set but the WK180C I can see its potential as a cheap poodle shooter.

I will wait and see what comes of them before jumping on board. I still have my ACR DMR to play with.

 

[drifter dave]

Lol superior material isn't going to affect short term accuracy. It's going to affect long term reliability and durability.

Right so why is the 180 automatically going to be inferior in accuracy?
Because it's cheaper I suppose.

 

[Shooting Centre]

No, I have an idea of what they cost to produce, but I think the retail pricing of them is exorbitant.
Yes. The B model. obviously.

Other than material use, which of these other factors do you know about? https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.3erp.com/factors-affect-cnc-machining-cost/amp/