223 vs 30WCF for hunting

jjohnwm said:
So, wait...apparently, what you are saying here is that a deer bullet...fired out of a deer cartridge...does a better job on deer-sized (and larger) animals than a ground squirrel bullet fired from a ground squirrel cartridge? Hmmm...amazing! The .223's seem to work well enough...at minimal distances...under absolutely perfect conditions...when utilized by subsistence hunters who, I would guess, don't give even a passing thought to closed seasons or bag limits. They have the option of hunting whenever they need or want to. They don't need to take their game within the time constraints imposed by a short open season, and they don't suffer under any self-imposed restrictions regarding the need for a "trophy".

I am also going to make another assumption here: they choose the .223 or .22-250 or, apparently, the .22Hornet simply because these rounds are inexpensive, no? I have worked on a couple of reserves in northern Manitoba, and the cartridge of choice seemed to be the 7.62x39, again apparently due to its price.

So...we have a bunch of CGN members...gun nuts...who, for the most part, need to take their deer within a relatively short legally-imposed window of time. Many of us also want that trophy deer, passing up chances at smaller, easier, more-perfectly-presented targets. We agonize over ballistic coefficients and velocities and bullet construction and terminal performance and a host of other details...and yet we use the fact that northern subsistence hunters utilize the .22cal cartridge for their hunting as an argument that it's a good choice for the job.

Makes sense to me...:confused:
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That's basically what I am saying but I don't find it confusing. I do not use a 223 on big game anymore for some of the reasons you postulated. However the 22-250 worked out pretty well with the right bullets. I don't use one any more either as the 6mm/243 is a bit better. In fact I don't use a 6mm/243 anymore because 6.5 to me is where big game cartridges start to shine. However, if you have the right sort of discipline and shooting ability these small cartridges do a better job than some would have you believe. Heimo Korth uses a 22-250 for all his hunting including Moose in the Alaskan wilderness. I don't think he ever takes a second shot at anything. I figure I could do the same even though I use a 348 Winchester in a lovely old Win 71 for my own Moose use. Lot's of ways to skin a cat. Skill beats equipment every time.
 
Nothing confusing about your post at all; in fact, I agree with pretty much every word. My cranky-pants comment refers more the plethora of "look how small a gun I can get away with using!" sales pitches that appear on the numerous reincarnations of this thread. :)
 
I have found the 30-30 very effective. No news there.

Have not used 223 on deer. But I have shot 120 lb kangaroos with 223, 55gr Hornday SP. Fist sized exit holes.

I would have no problem using a 223 on deer. My bullet would be the Sierra 60gr Hp or the 64 gr Win PwrPoint.
 
Never could understand why people want too use the very least gun they can .. If you do not have a deer gun borrow one .. when i wanted too moose hunt the gang would not take me till I had a MOOSE gun
 
I have seen 100 gr. .243 blow up on the shoulder bone of a deer and leave a broken shoulder a 1 in. Hole and blood trail.
Tracked it the next day fond it trying o get up and finished with 30/30, and no it was not me and .243, the guy that shot it sold the .243 and went to .308 end of story!
 
220 said:
I have seen 100 gr. .243 blow up on the shoulder bone of a deer and leave a broken shoulder a 1 in. Hole and blood trail.
Tracked it the next day fond it trying o get up and finished with 30/30, and no it was not me and .243, the guy that shot it sold the .243 and went to .308 end of story!
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I can give you another one. I seen a 170 gr 30-30 silver tip bullet shatter to pieces on a whitetail rib on a broadside shot of about 70 yards. The pieces made it far enough to shred the onside lung and heart but not a single fragment even touched the offside chest wall. The damage was enough to put the deer down in about 60-75 yards but I have never used the Winchester Silvertip load again for deer hunting. Take my example of one for what it's worth. I still love my 30-30 for deer hunting though and my 243 :)
 
Takujualuk said:
I lived in Nunavut for 10 years. After seeing the Inuit use 22-250's and 223's for seals and caribou I gave it a whirl. Was also looking for a soft recoiling rifle for my wife. In wide open Tundra with the ability to pick shots both calibers worked well. The 223 was best at under 150 yards. past this the speed necessary for sufficient energy starts to get pretty minimal. Bullets designed for deer hunting penetrated better but never saw the surface wounding with regular lead and copper bullets either. I also picked up a 30-30 in a Stevens 325B. The 30-30 penetrated much better with equal bullets and gave better 2nd half wounding channels though the first half was similar. In my experience the 30-30 is a more reliable performer. Here is a bunch of bullets from 125 to 170 grains from the 30-30 around a 53TSX and a 60 grain partition. You can see why the 2nd half wound channels of the 30-30 where bigger. Once you lose the quick kinetic transfer of the 223 which relies on speed you have a pretty small projectile penetrating. Maybe that's why it didn't seem to matter too much what type of bullets you use in a 223..other than too frangible bullets like the V-Max bullets all the lead and copper bullets of 55grains and heavier act in a similar way when it comes to killing power. Please discout the one bullet that lost it's core. That's a 358 225 grain Sierra that is a different story all together. At 30-30 velocities the 30 caliber bullets tend to behave themselves when it comes to sticking together. In fact the 30-30 will out penetrate the magnum calibers unless you switch to fancy bullets.

30-30top.jpg
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Excellent examples and thank you for posting that.
I posted on another thread stating that "velocity is not always our friend" and there's a half dozen examples of why.
There's an old old story that no one ever recovered a "failed" bullet from a dead animal. I tend to agree.

A 338 in the neck or body of a seal by an ice hole may not get you a seal, although it get's you one heck of an exit wound.
A 223 in the brain pan just might serve to feed the dogs another day.

Bullet choice. Bullet placement. Caliber for what you is doing all make's it right.
 
Where's that guy who always says: "30-30 kills deer dead" or "MEAT ON THE TABLE 30-30" I really miss that guy in these threads.
 
DOUGLAS D said:
There's an old old story that no one ever recovered a "failed" bullet from a dead animal. I tend to agree.
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Rubbish! A bullet can fail miserably, and the animal still die and be recovered through sheer luck. A bullet is designed to perform in a certain way; if it doesn't perform as designed, then it "failed", game recovered or not.
 
I stand corrected .. I have looked at varmint rounds before and never seen one for deer .. Guess some one made one .. 64 grain bullet .. Not my first choice But anyway some one must be buying them or they would not be making them
 
I have hunted deer on both ends of the size spectrum, from the Pacific Blacktail to the monster, grain fed Saskatchewan white tails and can say that the 223 is more than likely adequate for the coastal deer. They are very small in comparison and with a properly constructed bullet, I believe that a 223 would be adequate for these little guys. Maybe not ideal, but certainly within the margins of acceptable.
On the other hand I don't feel even the 243 is adequate for the big prairie white tails. It is also very different style of hunting and much longer shots at various angles are the norm on the prairies. I have seen these grain fed bruisers soak up hits that should be instantly debilitating and still run a couple hundred yards, with cartridges from the 25-06 and up. Of course the 223 would be lethal on a perfect broadside hit under 200 mtrs, but this is seldom the shot presented.
The only issue would be getting a presentation where a 30-30 would be useful, but if one were "pushing bush" for instance, where shots are from feet to a max of 50 mtrs the 30-30 would be a very useful rifle/cartridge combo using 170 gn bullets. A raking shot from a 30 cal would be much more effective than a 22 cal certainly.
When I was hunting these big Sask WT fairly regularly, with my cousins there, I modified a SXS shotgun for "pushing bush". I cut it down to 20" and mounted Remington 700 sights on it. I sighted it in with Brenneke slugs at 50 mtrs. and it actually shot both barrels into 6" @ 50 mtrs. which I thought was more than acceptable for it's intended purpose. Unfortunately I never got the opportunity to try it out on a deer.........
 
Well Douglas, pewt yer slippers awn and try awff the back porch............?..................:popCorn:

Be curious to know the extent of the damage caused by them slugs.
 
James1873 said:
out of the two, 30-30 for sure... no contest.
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A couple of years ago, I was contemplating a canoe trip through my old stomping grounds down south, and was contemplating which rifle to take on the adventure. It seemed to me that a CZ-527 in 7.62X39 (which some claim to be the equivalent of a .30 WCF) is a nice compact package, that would prove suitable in resolving any allegations of trespassing, posed by a truculent black bear. The downside was that it would require buying a new rifle, for which I'd have little use beyond this particular trip. Then it occurred to me, I already had a CZ-527 in .223. Huh! A 45 gr TSX has a velocity north or 3300 fps, it expands rapidly to .45 caliber, and penetrates well enough to break a shoulder, a hip, or transverse the head. Now if we take the example of a .45 caliber 500 gr solid on a 6000 pound elephant, I'd be truly over gunned with the .223 on a starving black bear.
 
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^^^ How was the accuracy of the TSX? I'd like to have at least one "deer worthy" load for my 527 carbine. I've tried 3 different loads with heavier bullets (60-63 gr, 1-12" twist), and gave up on them due to mediocre accuracy. It seems to shoot 55's ok, but all the bullet I have are "varmint" category.
 
9.3mauser said:
^^^ How was the accuracy of the TSX? I'd like to have at least one "deer worthy" load for my 527 carbine. I've tried 3 different loads with heavier bullets (60-63 gr, 1-12" twist), and gave up on them due to mediocre accuracy. It seems to shoot 55's ok, but all the bullet I have are "varmint" category.
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The TSX doesn't shoot like a varmint bullet, but at 100 its close to MOA for 3, and that works. My 527 also has a 1:12 twist, so the longer TSXs aren't in the cards.
 
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