3 Gun AR15 - questions and opinions

Sniffer

Sniffer

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Starting to get an itch for a decent quality 3 gun orientated AR15. I generally buy good quality gear and keep it for a while so I've compiled a list of wants but I've got a few questions

I've read some reports that a full length gas system is the way to go - is it and if so, why?

I searched the subject already and found a few articles but what is the optimum barrel length? I know that to enter the US (which I plan to) the minimum length is 16" but it seems most people are running 18". I guess 18" is better for stretching out to distance but at the expense of manoeuvrability and weight.

So far the short list looks like this (in no particular order):

Daniel Defence DDM4V7 Pro - 18" barrel with 1:7 twist, 3 Gun Geisselle trigger, 5.56 only, etc etc - seems like a solid setup thats pretty well ready to go if a little more basic than the rest of my wish list

Armalite M15 18" - 18" match grade stainless barrel with 1:8 twist (supposedly optimum twist rate), adjustable everything, 223 wylde, Timney trigger - seems like a LOT of rifle for the cash

Armalie M15 13" (16" overall with pinned & welded brake so technically still good to enter US) - technically this is the same as its 18" big brother except I imagine it is lighter and more manoeuvrable

F1 Firearms - from what I can tell these can be custom built to any specification with lots of options, looks like they would be SUPER light but with so much material removed and so many open slots I do wonder if it would be reliable if subjected to dust etc if running & gunning. Accuracy is supposed to be off the scale with a half MOA guarantee. Pricey from what I can see.

All comments & personal experiences welcome. I'm open to suggestions for any others that may also fit the bill.
 
IMO

The F1 firearms are more like show pieces to me. While lightweight, and fancy, it just seems to be like a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. If an 8 pound rifle is too much for you to swing, hit the weights. Plus, with the price you pay you can do just as good with some practice and training with a regular rifle. Just because a rifle guarantees half MOA, doesn't mean you can.

The 13" is a little short for a rifle meant for 3 gun, and the welded brake limits you. What if you don't like the brake? You're gonna have to drop a few hundred to have a gunsmith remove it.


I'd say it's a toss up between the armalite and the DD.
 
Daniel Defense DDM4V7 has a 16" barrel. I have been using a DDM4V5 for six or seven years and love it. Still stock except for the pistol grip. I have been alternating between a red dot and Vortex PST 1-4x for optics depending on the match. Upgraded to a 1-8x Strike Eagle for this year.

Most matches I attend the vast majority of targets are under 75m so I don't see the need for match barrels. The few targets that are at 300m or beyond are usually not too difficult and I only shoot 55gr FMJ so I am not maximizing the accuracy potential of the rifle.
 
Generally, a full length (rifle length) gas system will have a soft recoil impulse than a mid-length then a carbine length.

I have the DD V11 Pro which is basically the same gun as the M4V7 Pro except for keymod handguard instead of M-Lok. Between the rifle length gas and the brake it is pretty soft shooting. I knew I wasn't planning on playing around with the adjustable gas and didn't go for the Armalite for that reason (although I am sure that the Armalite dialled in would be even flatter).

It is on the heavy side although I don't find it much of an issue on the short range stages. Overall I am very happy with it - hard to go wrong with a Daniel Defence. A short barrelled AR would be a lot of fun on those short stages and would be fine at the distances we shoot locally (generally 100m and under).
 
I've lusted after the Armalite M15 18" for years. You don't heard of many of them in the wild though. The do look like excellent value for the buck...at least on paper.

Thanks,
Cal.
 
Lighter is nice within reason. I have a 16 inch DD carbine with a Troy 15 inch rail and ssae trigger which is perfect for matches around here. Would go 18 and rifle length on a new one though.
 
Timely topic.
I was also looking into few options and like you really like the DD4V7 PRO or DD4V11 PRO ,they are ready to go and seem to balance well and just feel outstanding however,, i am contemplating finding a DD4V7 SLW , it shaves off 1.5 pounds and then add a Geissele 3G trigger. This will cost a little more in the end and your stuck with a welded flash suppressor, but that weight !!!
 
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IME 16" is definitely the most common and popular in the States. And probably here in Canada, too.

I have a couple nice ARs for sale in the EE. They are made with an assembly of good quality parts and make up solid shooting gear. They also feature the advantage you speak of, long gas systems (long dwell time). IMO they are as high of quality as a Daniel Defense, at much lower price, and more ideal for 3gun.

I don't think the F1 is a good design for 3gun. Our rifles get left in racks out on dusty, windy ranges all summer long, and 100% reliability is key. I don't see any advantage to allowing more dirt into the action.
 
FoxAlpha said:
IMO

The F1 firearms are more like show pieces to me. While lightweight, and fancy, it just seems to be like a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. If an 8 pound rifle is too much for you to swing, hit the weights. Plus, with the price you pay you can do just as good with some practice and training with a regular rifle. Just because a rifle guarantees half MOA, doesn't mean you can.

The 13" is a little short for a rifle meant for 3 gun, and the welded brake limits you. What if you don't like the brake? You're gonna have to drop a few hundred to have a gunsmith remove it.


I'd say it's a toss up between the armalite and the DD.
Click to expand...

The F1s are fancy, its weird though - some days I like the look and others they look like something thats been taken too far with the amount of material they've removed. I've found its also hard to get an exact weight so they`re biggest selling point is a bit of an unknown quantity. F1 has a list of options to tailor to your spec ($$$$) but most I've seen for sale in Canada are base models which are overpriced compared to other rifles with similar specs.
 
armycat said:
Daniel Defense DDM4V7 has a 16" barrel. I have been using a DDM4V5 for six or seven years and love it. Still stock except for the pistol grip. I have been alternating between a red dot and Vortex PST 1-4x for optics depending on the match. Upgraded to a 1-8x Strike Eagle for this year.

Most matches I attend the vast majority of targets are under 75m so I don't see the need for match barrels. The few targets that are at 300m or beyond are usually not too difficult and I only shoot 55gr FMJ so I am not maximizing the accuracy potential of the rifle.
Click to expand...

Interesting

Out of curiosity what material are the targets at 75M? Steel or paper/cardboard?

Optics is something I have to decide on. I have a Vortex Spitfire red dot, Sightron 1-7x and Primary Arms 1-8x. Red dot is good for close quarters, the Sightron has the best glass but is the heaviest and the Primary Arms has the most magnification and, in my opinion, the best reticle (ACSS)
 
Why do you need direction on this?

The AR15 is a great platform because you can tailor it exactly for what you want....not what anyone else wants. Most of the discussion around differences in parts or approaches is completely personal.

An AR for 3 gun needs

- a decent trigger
- a decent/accurate barrel
- decent sights or scope (even then optics is very personal in terms of reticles offered)

Everything else is up to the owner. Rifle length gas, 15" handguard, buttstock, accessories, comp, preferred weight, etc, etc, etc....all a matter of personal preference
 
andrewl said:
Generally, a full length (rifle length) gas system will have a soft recoil impulse than a mid-length then a carbine length.

I have the DD V11 Pro which is basically the same gun as the M4V7 Pro except for keymod handguard instead of M-Lok. Between the rifle length gas and the brake it is pretty soft shooting. I knew I wasn't planning on playing around with the adjustable gas and didn't go for the Armalite for that reason (although I am sure that the Armalite dialled in would be even flatter).

It is on the heavy side although I don't find it much of an issue on the short range stages. Overall I am very happy with it - hard to go wrong with a Daniel Defence. A short barrelled AR would be a lot of fun on those short stages and would be fine at the distances we shoot locally (generally 100m and under).
Click to expand...

Thanks for confirming the advantages of the rifle length gas system. From what Ive seen full length is isn't available on anything under 18" - is this accurate?

I actually have a short barrelled AR but its 7.62x39 and uses steel cored surplus (a big no-no at competitions from what I've read) so I might sell that as Ive got into 223/556 pretty heavy (X95 & SL8)
 
Onagoth said:
Why do you need direction on this?

The AR15 is a great platform because you can tailor it exactly for what you want....not what anyone else wants. Most of the discussion around differences in parts or approaches is completely personal.

An AR for 3 gun needs

- a decent trigger
- a decent/accurate barrel
- decent sights or scope (even then optics is very personal in terms of reticles offered)

Everything else is up to the owner. Rifle length gas, 15" handguard, buttstock, accessories, comp, preferred weight, etc, etc, etc....all a matter of personal preference
Click to expand...

Unfortunately I don't have the luxury of handling any of the guns in question before purchasing (I've only seen a couple of places that carry any never mind all and they're a long ways away) but more importantly I'm curious if there are other guns in the same league that I'm not aware of

I understand about the tailoring aspect, I'm simply trying to get the best foundation to build on
 
mytiburon said:
Timely topic.
I was also looking into few options and like you really like the DD4V7 PRO or DD4V11 PRO ,they are ready to go and seem to balance well and just feel outstanding however,, i am contemplating finding a DD4V7 SLW , it shaves off 1.5 pounds and then add a Geissele 3G trigger. This will cost a little more in the end and your stuck with a welded flash suppressor, but that weight !!!

I have not shot but have picked up the armalite M15 3G and I'm sure its great but I am going to pick on it,, it doesn't look very nice and more importantly dosent feel or balance as good as the DD. The 13" is a little more than 1/2 pound more than the SuperLightWeight DD and the 18" is around the same as the DD Pro.
Click to expand...

Some food for thought there.....

I looked at the SLW but can't really see where theyre getting the weight savings? I know its a shorter barrel but is it a lighter profile too?

And just so I'm clear, what is the requirement for entering the US - is it minimum 16" barrel? If so why would the flash suppressor be welded (I`d be fitting a brake of some kind anyways)? My understanding is that it needed to be minimum 16" so if the barrel was less than that (like the Armalite 13") then a muzzle device would need to be permanently affixed to make the overall length 16" - or am I out to lunch?

Sounds like the 16" SLW with the 3G trigger would be a good compromise and very light, only downside is mid length gas system
 
adamg said:
IME 16" is definitely the most common and popular in the States. And probably here in Canada, too.

I have a couple nice ARs for sale in the EE. They are made with an assembly of good quality parts and make up solid shooting gear. They also feature the advantage you speak of, long gas systems (long dwell time). IMO they are as high of quality as a Daniel Defense, at much lower price, and more ideal for 3gun.

I don't think the F1 is a good design for 3gun. Our rifles get left in racks out on dusty, windy ranges all summer long, and 100% reliability is key. I don't see any advantage to allowing more dirt into the action.
Click to expand...

As you can probably tell, I'm in the early stages of figuring out what exactly I'm after but thanks for the heads up, I`ll be sure to have a look

Yes, I have to agree regarding the F1s. I can't see rough handling and dusty conditions (which often seems to be the case with 3 Gun from what i can tell) agreeing with them
 
adamg said:
IME 16" is definitely the most common and popular in the States. And probably here in Canada, too.

I have a couple nice ARs for sale in the EE. They are made with an assembly of good quality parts and make up solid shooting gear. They also feature the advantage you speak of, long gas systems (long dwell time). IMO they are as high of quality as a Daniel Defense, at much lower price, and more ideal for 3gun.

I don't think the F1 is a good design for 3gun. Our rifles get left in racks out on dusty, windy ranges all summer long, and 100% reliability is key. I don't see any advantage to allowing more dirt into the action.
Click to expand...

Things must be different where you're from....cause all I've ever seen in the US matches I've shot (michigan, kentucky, new mexico, West Viriginia, etc) is 18" barrels. Occasionally someone shows up with a 16", but that is an exception rather than the norm.

With respect to Canada....I do not see much comparison in the matches I shoot. See all sorts of different barrel lengths here, 7.5" right up to 20"
 
Sniffer said:
Thanks for confirming the advantages of the rifle length gas system. From what Ive seen full length is isn't available on anything under 18" - is this accurate?

I actually have a short barrelled AR but its 7.62x39 and uses steel cored surplus (a big no-no at competitions from what I've read) so I might sell that as Ive got into 223/556 pretty heavy (X95 & SL8)
Click to expand...

Some vendors offer rifle length gas on 16" barrels, but they are fairly obscure.
 
Onagoth said:
.cause all I've ever seen in the US matches I've shot (michigan, kentucky, new mexico, West Viriginia, etc) is 18" barrels. Occasionally someone shows up with a 16", but that is an exception rather than the norm.
Click to expand...


The rarest exception I'd say...
 
Sniffer said:
Thanks for confirming the advantages of the rifle length gas system. From what Ive seen full length is isn't available on anything under 18" - is this accurate?

I actually have a short barrelled AR but its 7.62x39 and uses steel cored surplus (a big no-no at competitions from what I've read) so I might sell that as Ive got into 223/556 pretty heavy (X95 & SL8)
Click to expand...

I would be the last person in the world to try and persuade someone from buying another AR but maybe just get out to a match and start shooting with your X95? You may discover what your preferences truly are or that your preferences may change over time.
 
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