FRT changes for antique colts

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Does anyone remember when the frt were changed for the 858s and Swiss arms there were also couple antique status guns that had their frt entries changed... I can’t seem to find anything on it now. Can anybody help me with this?
 
Does anyone remember when the frt were changed for the 858s and Swiss arms there were also couple antique status guns that had their frt entries changed... I can’t seem to find anything on it now. Can anybody help me with this?

Are you referring to the CFP not issuing antique status to converted restricted antiques to Antique status eg an 1892 Colt SAA 45 Colt converted to 44 Special and at that time getting antique status instead of restricted status?
 
Are you referring to the CFP not issuing antique status to converted restricted antiques to Antique status eg an 1892 Colt SAA 45 Colt converted to 44 Special and at that time getting antique status instead of restricted status?

Yuppers... I think they got another also. Maybe a French 1873?
 
As I understand it, if the pre-1898 revolver is registered as restricted, in one of the calibers listed in the non-antique list, they will not deem antique status if the revolver has its caliber changed to an off-list caliber.
It follows that if the revolver was antique exempt, changing caliber would not change status, as long as the caliber is not on "the list".
In the case of an 1873 French service revolver, in 11mm, it is a deemed antique. If bubba buggers the thing by reaming it to .455, 45ACP, etc., these rounds aren't on "the list", so deemed antique status should not be compromised.
 
As I understand it, if the pre-1898 revolver is registered as restricted, in one of the calibers listed in the non-antique list, they will not deem antique status if the revolver has its caliber changed to an off-list caliber.
It follows that if the revolver was antique exempt, changing caliber would not change status, as long as the caliber is not on "the list".
In the case of an 1873 French service revolver, in 11mm, it is a deemed antique. If bubba buggers the thing by reaming it to .455, 45ACP, etc., these rounds aren't on "the list", so deemed antique status should not be compromised.

This ^ also any saa colts altered before the frt changes of a few years ago still have antique status so if you have one with a rcmp antique letter its still antique.
 
This ^ also any saa colts altered before the frt changes of a few years ago still have antique status so if you have one with a rcmp antique letter its still antique.

How’s that work? They’re applying policy in two different ways... what about guns altered before hand but with no letter?

In the case of the colt Saa it’s hard to know what cartridge they originally were manufactured in. For example a colt factory letter will list caliber but not cartridge. Pre-1898 colts were made in at least 3 different .45caliber cartridges two of which are not on “the list”.

I find it absolutely mind boggling that th3 rcmp could switch policies like that... and enforce it in two different ways. Very nonsensical
 
They aren't accepting change from restricted or prohibited to deemed antique, if the revolver was previously registered as restricted or prohibited.
Yet a handgun can be reclassified from 12(6), under 105mm barrel to restricted. I have an 1878 Colt, .45 Colt caliber with factory 4" barrel. Made 1883. It could be rebarrelled, and reclassified as restricted, but cannot be caliber converted to gain deemed antique status, notwithstanding being 135 years old.
The RCMP makes up its interpretations as it goes along; remember, they are deemed to be experts by our Government. In the case of the re-calibered pre 1898s, I suspect that they didn't want to add to the supply of shootable handguns not subject to restrictions.
 
Tiriaq, I suspect you’re correct about “them” wanting to limit the supply of paperless guns... at that time there were several importers bringing them in. I viewed one at one point that I suspected was a fake... and heard tell of one fellow in the USA that was converting modern guns to match colt letters.

I can’t remember how to access the verifiers network and they aren’t answering the phone... it’s like a Monty python skit.

I wonder if a cartridge conversion of a 12.6 would work. Eg. 12.6 to restricted... .32acp to some non prohib caliber. Should be the same as the guns we’re discussing here, no?
 
I wonder if a cartridge conversion of a 12.6 would work. Eg. 12.6 to restricted... .32acp to some non prohib caliber. Should be the same as the guns we’re discussing here, no?

Seems like a major mess for the police to accurately enforce; 2 identical guns, same age, same caliber and one prohibited or restricted and the other antique

I intend to try for the prohib to restricted change sometime in the foreseeable future. I have an antique aged S&W that that I converted from 32 S&W short barreled to 22 Morris short barreled and it came back still prohib although the change of caliber was accepted. I intend to sleeve the barrel longer to over legal minimum and hopefully it will come back restricted.

cheers mooncoon
 
Don't know about the Colt SAAs but my understanding was that a couple of years ago the RCMP started to enforce that if the original calibre of the handgun was in a non-antique calibre then that handgun was permanently listed as a non-antique regardless if the calibre has been changed to a antique eligible calibre. A friend of mine got a RCMP antique letter this past December for a French Model 1873 that had been changed to 455 Webley and just last month another friend got a antique status letter for a French Model 1892 that had been re-barreled and cylinder reamed to 38 Special.
 
I talked to a rcmp tec at cfc today other than the saa colt thing and original caliber thing in antique handguns a few years ago theres no changes to antiques with the new Trudope liberal b.s gun law changes.
that thing to do with the saa colts she said was not a policy change but that they reread the original rules in a different way lol anyway that's what there saying. so the antique handguns (any make model) must have started life in a OK cartridge. if they are in a OK cartridge then they can be changed NP like French 1873s in 11 mm or saa colts in 41 LC to say 455 or 44 sp ect.


arguing with them is like trying to tell a liberal trudope is as dumb as a fence post it just don't work. they are set in there ways.
 
I consider myself to be somewhat of an expert on the topic of the antique status of the Colt Single Action Army. I am well versed in the applicable sections of the firearms act and more importantly, the criminal code. I have had lengthy conversations with RCMP officers and employees of the firearms lab on this topic, and from this experience I can tell you this:

Despite what many here think, the RCMP Firearms Lab does not make the law. They are, however, responsible for interpreting the law as it pertains to firearms. Due in part to the complex and vague nature of Canadian firearms law, this interpretation is open to being both broad and loose. In other words, when there is doubt as to the law, the RCMP firearms lab employees get to make a decision that effects the enforcement of the law - and this interpretation effects all firearms owners.

The key to understanding the lab's decision on the status of pre-1898 Colt lies in the interpretation of Schedule 1-7 of the Regulations Prescribing Antique Firearms, which in part reads "other than a handgun designed or adapted to discharge..." and goes on to list the vast majority of the common Colt SAA calibers. The firearms lab, as of about 4 years ago, has decided to interpret "designed" as "originally manufactured". Right or wrong, that is the case.

So, for the Colt SAA this means that in order for them to consider a pistol antique (and thus deregister and/or issue an antique letter) the gun must have rolled out of the factory in a caliber no excluded by the regulation, and not currently be in such a caliber. For proof, they will accept an original Colt factory letter, which WILL list odd 45 calibers such as the 455. The sad fact is, other than the 41 Colt, original guns manufactured in calibers not listed on the "no good" list are VERY rare, and considered VERY collectable.

It is true that most of the rank and file members of the RCMP have a very limited understanding of the vague and complex antique firearms regulations - as such, they would rely on their own internal experts at the Firearms lab or NWEST teams. What this means for the owner of a pre-1898 SAA is that what the Lab deems as antique and restricted VERY much matters. It is true that you do not need to produce an antique letter in order to possess an antique firearms. However, should the police catch you with a gun without such a letter, this is the most likely scenario:

You will insist that the gun is antique and no ATT/licence is required. The officer will not know one way or the other, and will seize the gun pending further investigation. The officer will then contact the firearms lab, who will use their interpretation of the firearms act to provide advice to the investigating officer. This advice will be that unless the owner can prove the gun was originally in an antique caliber, it's restricted or prohibited. Best case scenario, you lose the gun. Worst case is you are charged and sent to court, where you'll have ample opportunity to spend huge sums of money on a lawyer to argue your case infront of a judge. That'll be your opportunity to convince the judge that the lab is misinterpreting the law...

You'll often see pre-1898 Colt SAA guns sold on the EE in 38 special or 44 special or some other converted caliber, advertised as antique status but WITHOUT an antique letter. Rest assured, 99 times out of 100 this gun will have been manufactured in a no-go caliber, and wind you in the scenario above. There was recently a US marked gun on the EE, no letter. These guns were ALL in 45LC originally.

As for guns with antique letters, any gun that was lettered before they changed their interpretation was grandfathered. I was specifically told they would not be revoking issued antique letters.

Hope this helps.
 
I consider myself to be somewhat of an expert on the topic of the antique status of the Colt Single Action Army. I am well versed in the applicable sections of the firearms act and more importantly, the criminal code. I have had lengthy conversations with RCMP officers and employees of the firearms lab on this topic, and from this experience I can tell you this:

Despite what many here think, the RCMP Firearms Lab does not make the law. They are, however, responsible for interpreting the law as it pertains to firearms. Due in part to the complex and vague nature of Canadian firearms law, this interpretation is open to being both broad and loose. In other words, when there is doubt as to the law, the RCMP firearms lab employees get to make a decision that effects the enforcement of the law - and this interpretation effects all firearms owners.

The key to understanding the lab's decision on the status of pre-1898 Colt lies in the interpretation of Schedule 1-7 of the Regulations Prescribing Antique Firearms, which in part reads "other than a handgun designed or adapted to discharge..." and goes on to list the vast majority of the common Colt SAA calibers. The firearms lab, as of about 4 years ago, has decided to interpret "designed" as "originally manufactured". Right or wrong, that is the case.

So, for the Colt SAA this means that in order for them to consider a pistol antique (and thus deregister and/or issue an antique letter) the gun must have rolled out of the factory in a caliber no excluded by the regulation, and not currently be in such a caliber. For proof, they will accept an original Colt factory letter, which WILL list odd 45 calibers such as the 455. The sad fact is, other than the 41 Colt, original guns manufactured in calibers not listed on the "no good" list are VERY rare, and considered VERY collectable.

It is true that most of the rank and file members of the RCMP have a very limited understanding of the vague and complex antique firearms regulations - as such, they would rely on their own internal experts at the Firearms lab or NWEST teams. What this means for the owner of a pre-1898 SAA is that what the Lab deems as antique and restricted VERY much matters. It is true that you do not need to produce an antique letter in order to possess an antique firearms. However, should the police catch you with a gun without such a letter, this is the most likely scenario:

You will insist that the gun is antique and no ATT/licence is required. The officer will not know one way or the other, and will seize the gun pending further investigation. The officer will then contact the firearms lab, who will use their interpretation of the firearms act to provide advice to the investigating officer. This advice will be that unless the owner can prove the gun was originally in an antique caliber, it's restricted or prohibited. Best case scenario, you lose the gun. Worst case is you are charged and sent to court, where you'll have ample opportunity to spend huge sums of money on a lawyer to argue your case infront of a judge. That'll be your opportunity to convince the judge that the lab is misinterpreting the law...

You'll often see pre-1898 Colt SAA guns sold on the EE in 38 special or 44 special or some other converted caliber, advertised as antique status but WITHOUT an antique letter. Rest assured, 99 times out of 100 this gun will have been manufactured in a no-go caliber, and wind you in the scenario above. There was recently a US marked gun on the EE, no letter. These guns were ALL in 45LC originally.

As for guns with antique letters, any gun that was lettered before they changed their interpretation was grandfathered. I was specifically told they would not be revoking issued antique letters.

Hope this helps.


This should be made into a sticky ^^^^^^ so we don't have to explain this every two weeks to someone else. well written darkwater
 
I consider myself to be somewhat of an expert on the topic of the antique status of the Colt Single Action Army. I am well versed in the applicable sections of the firearms act and more importantly, the criminal code. I have had lengthy conversations with RCMP officers and employees of the firearms lab on this topic, and from this experience I can tell you this:

Despite what many here think, the RCMP Firearms Lab does not make the law. They are, however, responsible for interpreting the law as it pertains to firearms. Due in part to the complex and vague nature of Canadian firearms law, this interpretation is open to being both broad and loose. In other words, when there is doubt as to the law, the RCMP firearms lab employees get to make a decision that effects the enforcement of the law - and this interpretation effects all firearms owners.

The key to understanding the lab's decision on the status of pre-1898 Colt lies in the interpretation of Schedule 1-7 of the Regulations Prescribing Antique Firearms, which in part reads "other than a handgun designed or adapted to discharge..." and goes on to list the vast majority of the common Colt SAA calibers. The firearms lab, as of about 4 years ago, has decided to interpret "designed" as "originally manufactured". Right or wrong, that is the case.

So, for the Colt SAA this means that in order for them to consider a pistol antique (and thus deregister and/or issue an antique letter) the gun must have rolled out of the factory in a caliber no excluded by the regulation, and not currently be in such a caliber. For proof, they will accept an original Colt factory letter, which WILL list odd 45 calibers such as the 455. The sad fact is, other than the 41 Colt, original guns manufactured in calibers not listed on the "no good" list are VERY rare, and considered VERY collectable.

It is true that most of the rank and file members of the RCMP have a very limited understanding of the vague and complex antique firearms regulations - as such, they would rely on their own internal experts at the Firearms lab or NWEST teams. What this means for the owner of a pre-1898 SAA is that what the Lab deems as antique and restricted VERY much matters. It is true that you do not need to produce an antique letter in order to possess an antique firearms. However, should the police catch you with a gun without such a letter, this is the most likely scenario:

You will insist that the gun is antique and no ATT/licence is required. The officer will not know one way or the other, and will seize the gun pending further investigation. The officer will then contact the firearms lab, who will use their interpretation of the firearms act to provide advice to the investigating officer. This advice will be that unless the owner can prove the gun was originally in an antique caliber, it's restricted or prohibited. Best case scenario, you lose the gun. Worst case is you are charged and sent to court, where you'll have ample opportunity to spend huge sums of money on a lawyer to argue your case infront of a judge. That'll be your opportunity to convince the judge that the lab is misinterpreting the law...

You'll often see pre-1898 Colt SAA guns sold on the EE in 38 special or 44 special or some other converted caliber, advertised as antique status but WITHOUT an antique letter. Rest assured, 99 times out of 100 this gun will have been manufactured in a no-go caliber, and wind you in the scenario above. There was recently a US marked gun on the EE, no letter. These guns were ALL in 45LC originally.

As for guns with antique letters, any gun that was lettered before they changed their interpretation was grandfathered. I was specifically told they would not be revoking issued antique letters.

Hope this helps.
I’m still stuck on the grandfathered part... if they’ve changed their interpretation of the law how on gods green earth can they grandfather? In court you’ll get the current interpretation I doubt any judge is going to care about an outdated letter that starts with, “according to the information you provided...” and generally has other disclaimers attached.

A colt letter will say .44 Cal, not .44-40.

A .44 cal colt refers to bore rather than cartridge.
This is my experience with the colt letters also. They list caliber not cartridge.
 
I’m still stuck on the grandfathered part... if they’ve changed their interpretation of the law how on gods green earth can they grandfather? In court you’ll get the current interpretation I doubt any judge is going to care about an outdated letter that starts with, “according to the information you provided...” and generally has other disclaimers attached.


This is my experience with the colt letters also. They list caliber not cartridge.

You beat me to it, I was going to add that it's actually fairly complicated.

If you read any of the books that researched the Colt's London Office and Baron Von Oppen's letters you discover that Colt's quite commonly shipped incorrectly chambered (and barreled) firearms which did not match the ledgers.

Von Oppen shipped guns back to Colt's to be corrected, and the same (now corrected) guns were returned to him.

Von Oppen complained so regularly that Colt's sent him barrels and cylinders to correct the miss-shipped guns himself.

So...how does that mesh with the current RCMP policy? shipped in .45 Colt, but entered in the .476 or .455 column of the shipping registers.

or alternately, entered in the .45 register (it again was a bore, not cartridge column), but shipped as a .455 . .44Russians actually shipped as .44-40, .44 Colt, .44MH, .440W, 11mmGSC ect.

The US market guns exhibit the same ledger issues, > .44 cal "usually" referred to .44-40, but everything ever made with a ".44" caliber chambering could have been the cartridge cylinder fitted.


What about the guns returned to Colt's and rebuilt into "modern" cartridges? It was extremely common for guns to be rebuilt at Colt's into .38 and .44 Special from the early 1900's straight thru into the late 1950's.
 
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I think Darkwater has it nailed pretty good in that response he made [outside of the fact that if you were checked out by an officer and you had one that wasn't RCMP lettered (but still a pre-98 41colt for example anyway) that you'd lose it] They may hold it temporarily until they called cfc, did their due-dilligence and realized it's indeed an "Antique," but I can't see why they'd never return it afterward if it was a legit Antique...

I have an RCMP lettered Colt myself, and the techs told me straight out (while mine was going through the motions of getting lettered) that the letters are "Courtesy" letters more-so than anything else, simply documented to make it easier for recognition as Antique-class and distinguishable between the restricted category. That's it. So being they are (absolutely) a wise paper to have if you intend to make use of or show your Antique any obvious amount, the statement that it'll be seized though, never to be returned without that letter is not true. Not so long as those letters remain a voluntary ordeal and considered "courtesy" letters. Having a (Colt, per-say) non-lettered but obviously a pre-98 in proper caliber to class as antique, doesn't hold an legalities by not being lettered. None.

Break the laws though, as with any other section tied to criminal activity and you're in trouble no matter what kinda papers you have. Stay within 'bounds and you're away & in-business no different than if you were carrying a pellet gun or Pops old Winchester... it isn't a single bit more complicated than that
 
For the record, I never said a gun the lab considers to be "antique status" would be kept if siezed for investigation. Those would certainly be returned once the status was clear.

I was referring specifically to unlettered Colt single action army pistols, originally manufactured in a caliber in the "no good" list. These guns would be considered restricted or prohibited, therefore at minimum they'd be considered an unregistered restricted firearm. Good luck getting it back.
 
For the record, I never said a gun the lab considers to be "antique status" would be kept if siezed for investigation. Those would certainly be returned once the status was clear.

I was referring specifically to unlettered Colt single action army pistols, originally manufactured in a caliber in the "no good" list. These guns would be considered restricted or prohibited, therefore at minimum they'd be considered an unregistered restricted firearm. Good luck getting it back.

The rcmp letters are meaningless, make your own letter explaining the law on the pattern of the ones which were available a few years ago.

If you are stopped with an antique you will likely be arrested until/unless you are able to sufficiently educate whichever agency/officer you are detained by.

The only real solution is to try to avoid doing stupid things and dealing with incompetant or uneducated people.
 
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