Transport rules for pistol CFO is giving 2 answers

Doors of Perception

Doors of Perception

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Location
Burlington, Ontario
Greetings,

The CFO has confused me as I got to opposite answers from two different agents. Can some enlighted CGN'er kindly explain which agent is correct.

I am recently licensed and I purchased a pistol it was shipped to me after I received a document titled "Transfer Notification (Buyer)" from the CFO in Orillia, ON.

I called the cfo (1-800-731-4000) looking to get an ATT, I was told two things:

1. 6 standard Att conditions were automatically attached to my RPAL.
2. The "Transfer Notification (Buyer)" was my temporary ownership documents and I was free to take the pistol to my range the same day.

The agent then said have fun shooting.

I purchased another pistol that I received today. The seller was notified of the approved transfer by email and he shipped the pistol. My problem is that I do not have the "Transfer Notification (Buyer)" documents so I called the CFO (same number). The agent said that I don't need a "Transfer Notification (Buyer)" because I already have the pistol and I can't take the pistol to the range until I have ownership documents which take another 3-4 weeks.

Which agent is correct?

Thanks and regards,
doors
 
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What does the law say?

Why are you seeking legal advice for secretaries working at a call center?

Also what does your RPAL say? What does your conditions sheet say?

You already have the answers you seek, the CFC is not the place to look for information. FYI here is where you look for answers:

http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/F-11.6/
http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-46/page-19.html#h-37

Unauthorized possession of firearm

91 (1) Subject to subsection (4), every person commits an offence who possesses a prohibited firearm, a restricted firearm or a non-restricted firearm without being the holder of
(a) a licence under which the person may possess it; and
(b) in the case of a prohibited firearm or a restricted firearm, a registration certificate for it.
Click to expand...

http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-46/page-20.html#docCont

Are you a holder of a registration certificate for that firearm?

There are a few others things to consider but lets leave it at this for now. Also you have read the firearms act right?

Shawn
 
The conditions are the 6 standard conditions:

transport of restricted to and from firearms business, gunsmith, range, port of entry, gun show and pick up from the sellers house

I don't have a registration certificate for either firearm.

I have a Transfer notification (Buyer) form for the revolver and I have not received anything yet for the pistol. The Seller received and email from the CFO saying the transfer was approved and he could ship.

The Transfer notification (Buyer) states:

"This is to inform you that your application to register the following firearm has been processed. YOu may take possession of them now. your new registration certificate will be sent to you in a separate envelope"

Will this document get me to the range?
 
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Doors of Perception said:
Greetings, The CFO has confused me as I got to opposite answers from two different agents. Can some enlighted CGN'er kindly explain which agent is correct. I am recently licensed and I purchased a pistol it was shipped to me after I received a document titled "Transfer Notification (Buyer)" from the CFO in Orillia, ON. I called the cfo (1-800-731-4000) looking to get an ATT, I was told two things: 1. 6 standard Att conditions were automatically attached to my RPAL. 2. The "Transfer Notification (Buyer)" was my temporary ownership documents and I was free to take the pistol to my range the same day. The agent then said have fun shooting. I purchased another pistol that I received today. The seller was notified of the approved transfer by email and he shipped the pistol. My problem is that I do not have the "Transfer Notification (Buyer)" documents so I called the CFO (same number). The agent said that I don't need a "Transfer Notification (Buyer)" because I already have the pistol and I can't take the pistol to the range until I have ownership documents which take another 3-4 weeks. Which agent is correct? Thanks and regards,
doors
Click to expand...

Forgive the snarky responses you sometimes get to perfectly legit questions here on CGN.

There's no need for it, but I suppose its a reflection of the frustration we all feel as gun owners being subjected to the same silly, meaningless paper regulations.

Then, to add insult to injury, folks get varying advice from those who administer that useless paper, and sadly, are often the worst source of advice.

To address your question, Doors, you ought to wait until your Registration Certificate(s) arrive before you venture to the range with your new toys. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense, but there it is.
 
Tsalt said:
All I know is your name is awesome.

Rip jim
Click to expand...

Agreed haha :d

CV32 said:
Forgive the snarky responses you sometimes get to perfectly legit questions here on CGN.

There's no need for it, but I suppose its a reflection of the frustration we all feel as gun owners being subjected to the same silly, meaningless paper regulations.

Then, to add insult to injury, folks get varying advice from those who administer that useless paper, and sadly, are often the worst source of advice.

To address your question, Doors, you ought to wait until your Registration Certificate(s) arrive before you venture to the range with your new toys. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense, but there it is.
Click to expand...

That's just Shawn, you get used to him after a while ;)
 
I just called the cfo (1-800-731-4000) again, and that appears to be a federal number, they gave me the extension for Ontario (7503). Unfortunatly they are closed today, but the agent said that they could email me the transfer notification (buyer) or registration documents tomorrow.

I will update tomorrow after my call.
 
shawn said:
What does the law say?

Why are you seeking legal advice for secretaries working at a call center?

Also what does your RPAL say? What does your conditions sheet say?

You already have the answers you seek, the CFC is not the place to look for information. FYI here is where you look for answers:

http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/F-11.6/
http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-46/page-19.html#h-37



http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-46/page-20.html#docCont

Are you a holder of a registration certificate for that firearm?

There are a few others things to consider but lets leave it at this for now. Also you have read the firearms act right?

Shawn
Click to expand...

Well, technically he is the holder of a registration certificate for that gun. The number of his certificate is shown on the Transfer approval.
 
Doors of Perception said:
The conditions are the 6 standard conditions:

transport of restricted to and from firearms business, gunsmith, range, port of entry, gun show and pick up from the sellers house
Click to expand...

Ok cool we got that locked down

Doors of Perception said:
I don't have a registration certificate for either firearm.
Click to expand...

Can you show me where it says I require a registration certificate to transport?

Doors of Perception said:
The Transfer notification (Buyer) states:

"This is to inform you that your application to register the following firearm has been processed. YOu may take possession of them now. your new registration certificate will be sent to you in a separate envelope"
Click to expand...

Pay attention to the bold word. What do you think that means?

Doors of Perception said:
Will this document get me to the range?
Click to expand...

See question #1

Shawn
 
Its funny how many think stating questions is snarky or what ever LOL

Its all about teach a man to fish and he can feed himself for life

Shawn
 
Doors of Perception said:
I just called the cfo (1-800-731-4000) again, and that appears to be a federal number, they gave me the extension for Ontario (7503). Unfortunatly they are closed today, but the agent said that they could email me the transfer notification (buyer) or registration documents tomorrow.

I will update tomorrow after my call.
Click to expand...

Of course I'm not a lawyer, but I would say once you have your transfer certificate you're fine to go to the range. Even if you went now without the paperwork the worst they could do is take your gun away until you show up at the station with your paperwork in hand. I'm not even sure about that as Shawn's question below about needing a RC for transport rings a bell and I think he may be right. At the CRFSC they embed in us the need to have the reg. cert. when transporting but maybe that's not actually in the law?
 
Pocisk said:
Of course I'm not a lawyer, but I would say once you have your transfer certificate you're fine to go to the range. Even if you went now without the paperwork the worst they could do is take your gun away until you show up at the station with your paperwork in hand. I'm not even sure about that as Shawn's question below about needing a RC for transport rings a bell and I think he may be right. At the CRFSC they embed in us the need to have the reg. cert. when transporting but maybe that's not actually in the law?
Click to expand...

i think the whole thing is, if asked you must produce the regies when asked to do so. Failure to do so, will get your guns impounded for upto 14* days (after they are forfeited I think?)for you to prove that you have the proper paperwork.

however I think my old ATT had the condition that I needed to have regi with me when transporting.
 
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bsand said:
i think the whole thing is, if asked you must produce the regies when asked to do so. Failure to do so, will get your guns impounded for upto 30 days (after they are forfeited I think?)for you to prove that you have the proper paperwork.

however I think my old ATT had the condition that I needed to have regi with me when transporting.
Click to expand...

Huh. I was pretty sure it was 14 days but you can petition a JP for more time. I guess if the ATT says you need the cert then you would need it in that case.
 
Thanks for your help Shawn -

Let me see if I have this right - Because the transfer was approved for the revolver, I do indeed have a registration certificate, just not a physical copy as it is on its way. This combined with my transport conditions attracted to my RPAL, I'm good to go to an approved range. The CRFSC did indeed drill into my head that I needed a registration certificate and ATT to transport to the range. It was awhile ago when I took the course, but they did say that hollowpoint ammunition was prohibited which of course it is not.

The quote that you gave was "holder of a registration certificate" does holder mean physically on my person? So the registration certificate is not like a drivers license where one can be ticketed for not producing ones license upon request?

for the pistol, I have not received any paperwork from the CFO yet. I don't have any proof that the transfer was approved - just the sellers word. So a call to the Ontario CFO tomorrow may not be a bad idea.
 
The boss is away so I invested a little time to poke around, and indeed, my initial feeling was correct. It's in the Criminal Code, if you don't have the reg cert they can seize your firearm and you have 14 days to show up with your paperwork. So bsand looks like you are absolutely correct.

117.03 (1) Despite section 117.02, a peace officer who finds

(a) a person in possession of a prohibited firearm, a restricted firearm or a non-restricted firearm who fails, on demand, to produce, for inspection by the peace officer, an authorization or a licence under which the person may lawfully possess the firearm and, in the case of a prohibited firearm or a restricted firearm, a registration certificate for it, or

(b) a person in possession of a prohibited weapon, a restricted weapon, a prohibited device or any prohibited ammunition who fails, on demand, to produce, for inspection by the peace officer, an authorization or a licence under which the person may lawfully possess it,

may seize the firearm, prohibited weapon, restricted weapon, prohibited device or prohibited ammunition unless its possession by the person in the circumstances in which it is found is authorized by any provision of this Part, or the person is under the direct and immediate supervision of another person who may lawfully possess it.
Click to expand...

Transporting a firearm qualifies as being in possession of a firearm, so this applies.
 
Did you get your updated licence and conditions after the first restricted purchase ?

When I got my RPAL there was a piece of paper with the terms, but there were no terms included IIRC.
Then when I purchased my first restricted I received a second licence (card and terms) and the terms now include all the ones we "know and love".
Then a week or so later, after I received the firearm, I received the registration certificate for the firearm.

My understanding, and I could be wrong, is that until you have the registration certificate for the firearm you cannot take it to the range. Good advice might be to keep a couple of copies of it kicking about, just in case.
 
PizzaEater said:
Did you get your updated licence and conditions after the first restricted purchase ?
Click to expand...

Yes, that's exactly what happened. Which was why I called the CFO the first time because I had nothing in writhing authorizing me to transport the revolver to the range. The agent emailed me the list of the 6 standard conditions and said i was good to go the the range and said my transfer approval was my temporary registration certificate. Which it must be, because it states that I "may now take possession of them (firearm) now".

Shawn mentioned the caveats about getting legal advise from call center employees -

But what the F@#% - it seems one need to be a Lawyer to figure out if a day at the range is kosher or not.

After I speak with the CFO ontario, I'll follow their advice, post it here for what's worth, and hope for the best.
 
bsand said:
i think the whole thing is, if asked you must produce the regies when asked to do so. Failure to do so, will get your guns impounded for upto 14* days (after they are forfeited I think?)for you to prove that you have the proper paperwork.

however I think my old ATT had the condition that I needed to have regi with me when transporting.
Click to expand...

This is the source of the problems with this question, prior to C-42 all ATTs short or long had the condition of carrying the reg cert. It was never part of the firearms act or CCC, but it was on peoples conditions list for ATTs. So that translated into people parroting that you have to have the reg cret to transport BS.

There is no such law, and if your ATT, C-42 or otherwise, does not have that condition you do not require it to transport.

The answer to this questions resides in section 117 of the CCC:

Seizure on failure to produce authorization

117.03 (1) Despite section 117.02, a peace officer who finds

(a) a person in possession of a prohibited firearm, a restricted firearm or a non-restricted firearm who fails, on demand, to produce, for inspection by the peace officer, an authorization or a licence under which the person may lawfully possess the firearm and, in the case of a prohibited firearm or a restricted firearm, a registration certificate for it, or
(b) a person in possession of a prohibited weapon, a restricted weapon, a prohibited device or any prohibited ammunition who fails, on demand, to produce, for inspection by the peace officer, an authorization or a licence under which the person may lawfully possess it,

may seize the firearm, prohibited weapon, restricted weapon, prohibited device or prohibited ammunition unless its possession by the person in the circumstances in which it is found is authorized by any provision of this Part, or the person is under the direct and immediate supervision of another person who may lawfully possess it.

Return of seized thing on production of authorization

(2) If a person from whom any thing is seized under subsection (1) claims the thing within 14 days after the seizure and produces for inspection by the peace officer by whom it was seized, or any other peace officer having custody of it,

(a) a licence under which the person is lawfully entitled to possess it, and
(b) in the case of a prohibited firearm or a restricted firearm, an authorization and registration certificate for it,

the thing shall without delay be returned to that person.
Click to expand...

http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-46/page-26.html#h-47

And there you have it. If you ever get stopped and don't have the reg cert with you, literally, all that can happen is seizure until you produce it.

Whether or not you choose to transport prior to actually having the reg cert is up to you, just be aware that if stopped you will have to produce it within 14 days under normal circumstances

Shawn
 
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