What Shoots Better: CZ or Anschütz?

[RabidM4U5]

What Shoots Better: CZ or Anschütz?

I think it is time to cut through the BS, hype, opinion, and general misinformation regarding rimfire rifle accuracy. Let's lay the cards out on the table, show your hands, everyone, what rifle shoots the best?

The CZ 455 has been subject to much negative commentary, much of it opinion based. They say it's not as good as the 452, mainly because the barrel is no longer threaded to the receiver and it only has one bolt lug. Do these things really matter? I'm not so sure, but I have seen many 455's with crappy barrels and no rifle will shoot with a crappy barrel... but what about when a 455 has a good barrel? How about a really good barrel?

So let's do this, post your best five, 5-shot groups, tightest average takes the glory. I'll start with an entry for the CZ team, a 455 with a 24" straight 0.850" custom 3-groove Lilja barrel, in a Boyd's Pro-Varmint with Fly Trigger. On separate days with different ammo, I achieved results of a 0.2198" and 0.2182" avg, respectively, at 50 yards. It was no fluke, the CZ 455 can shoot. Anyone got a factory Annie that can beat it?

Most Accurate Rifle

CZ 455/Custom Lilja - RabidM4U5: 0.218" avg.







Remember, hardly any rifle will shoot it's best out-of-the-box, they all take some work to make sure everything is perfect with ignition, trigger, stock, and barrel tuning. Yes, my 455 is highly modified, but this is what a CZ 455 can do when you put some work into it, and just goes to show that the detractors of the 455 platform don't know what they're talking about. Recall, I'm no fan-boy, and I'll be the first to say CZ does a crap job of chambering and crowning their barrels that might otherwise shoot fine, if the finish machining was done properly. The 455 action is no slouch when you attach a barrel that's been done right to it, plus address the possible limitations of the factory stock and ignition system. If there is any accuracy left on the table as compared to a 452, 64, or 54 action, I am really, really, hard pressed to see it.

Then you'll be guaranteed to be smoking something, if not the Anschutz rifle that can arrive within a week or so, then some dope to distract you from the cost, wait, and apprehension about whether you can ever get your money back should you decide to sell in order to upgrade to an Anschutz 54 (or assuage the missus).

While it is recognized that an Anschütz is a definite upgrade in terms of fit/finish, trigger, and factory stock options, please show me that it is also an upgrade in accuracy worth 2-3x the cost of a customized CZ. I may very well be smoking a victory cigar, while you, on the other hand, may require some of the aforementioned dope to sooth your bruised ego about your multiple Annies getting out-performed by a CZ.

 

[lowe160]

Can you get a factory CZ 455 do that?? What is the cost to a regular person to build a custom CZ?
What would the out come be if we customized the Annie?

Comparison is not equal. How about comparing the CZ to a Turbo build

 

[grauhanen]

Sja.

 

[manitou210]

View attachment 178879
This shot at 100 y just a old Remington

 

[RabidM4U5]

Can you get a factory CZ 455 do that?? I've only dealt with the sporter barreled CZ's, and the best I can do is 0.4"-0.6" avg at 50 yards, will take a lucky target to make the 1/2" challenge. It may be possible with one of the Varmint barrels, but would require significant work such as: hand lapping to a perfect taper, free of all tool marks (a skill and an art I have not developed), then recrown at the tightest spot for the muzzle, and re-chamber with a match chamber plus re-cut the shank for proper headspace and tight fit into the action to be permanently attached with Loctite 680. Unless you own a lathe and are handy with it... might as well just start with a match grade blank sent to your preferred gunsmith.

What is the cost to a regular person to build a custom CZ?
455 rifle parted out (sell stock and barrel) for donor action = $330
Boyd's Pro-Varmint stock with adjustable comb and high gloss finish = $423
Custom fit Lilja barrel = $780 (includes cost of blank, gunsmith fees, import fees + taxes/duties and shipping)
DIY pillaring/bedding = about $30
Total = $1563
Add Fly Trigger = $223 = $1786 (I would stick with factory trigger and Yo-Dave kit, same pull weight because the Fly must be tuned to the rifle, not whatever weight you desire as it can cause issues with sear drag and ignition if it isn't set just right, the pull weight is the pull weight once it's tuned, plus it has a mushy feeling break.)

The light barreled Anschütz 64 TT is $1695 before tax and shipping, $1849 for the heavier barreled MPR vesion

What would the out come be if we customized the Annie?
About the same, depends on the individual barrel blank, really, but they should be neck and neck with each other. I have an 18" straight 0.900" Shilen on my 64 MSR, but am several months behind testing/tuning it compared to my CZ. It shows potential, but kicks out a lot of fliers. The chamber wasn't cut as cleanly as the Lilja's, plus the Lilja has hundreds more rounds through it, it may just require an appreciable amount of shooting for the leade to wear in and settle the rifle down, or I haven't got the tuning quite right yet. A lot more testing was done with the CZ than I have gotten around to with the MSR, so there is that. Bottom row is the CZ, the rest is the Annie, with the Midas + on the top row being shot last.





Comparison is not equal. How about comparing the CZ to a Turbo build

For this question I'll refer you to an RFC member who has experience with a Turbo, a 10X, Custom Anschütz, and Custom CZ. Guess which is his best performer... http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10938266&postcount=271

Congratulations on a nicely shooting rifle.

We know the receiver and bolt are stock CZ. Perhaps some information on what you did to your rifle would serve to inform readers who may not be aware -- for example, the barrel, the trigger, the stock, wait-times and import fees if any, and do-it-yourselfability for the average Joe.

Thank you. The barrel was smithed by (now-retired) Custom CZ Builder Don Smith, who goes by the handle djdilliodon on RFC. The 3-groove barrel was from a production run Lilja made just for Don's use. It received Don's custom chamber design, specs unknown, but it is very tight and heavily engraves the bullet. It was machined with a cone breech, which allowed for index testing before final attachment to the receiver, and the index location was chosen so that the bullets impacted to 6 o'clock from the POA. Caution must be exercised to never dry-fire on the cone breech, or it will get a nasty ding requiring a chamber iron to repair. I store it with a snap-cap chambered, and with the bolt de-cocked by holding the trigger and gently closing the bolt. It was about a 4-week turnaround on the barrel once Don received it from Lilja until he shipped it out to the export agent.

It was imported using Prophet River's service, which lists an 8-12 week wait time, but the last two barrels they brought in for me were only a 4-week wait. $50 fee for importing the barrel, then tax/duties and shipping bring it to a little over $100 to Prophet River. Precise specs for the barrel were given to Don, through the use of a depth micrometer to measure the action face to bolt recess distance, for the purpose of determining the required shank length of the barrel to set the headspace to 0.0415", as well as the shank diameter to be a tight, but slip fit into the receiver. If it were not for the import/export laws, it is preferable to deliver your action to the gunsmith fitting the barrel to it so that they may measure for themselves. Really the only thing I couldn't do here was machine and chamber the barrel, the rest of the build can be completed by anyone who is handy. Gluing in the barrel is simple, degrease both it and the action, apply the Loc-Tite, slip in, hold with a bedding screw, clean up any squeeze out, allow to cure, done.

Stock wise, one could buy a Tacti-cool and already be provided a Boyds Pro-Varmint, but if a non-painted one is desired, especially with the adjustable comb, then it must come direct from Boyds. Was about an 8-week wait for it, and I originally planned to use it for a different rifle but plans change... and I had to sand out the tapered profile barrel channel to accept a straight heavy barrel with a generous free-float. The stock was pillared with aluminum tube stock graciously sent to me by grauhanen (thanks for those, they have gone to good use), with appropriate cut-out/filing to clear the front mag-well and also accommodate the Fly Trigger. The fore-stock was also reinforced with a 3/8" threaded rod and epoxy, where Boyds removes a great deal of material from the barrel channel. The action and 1.5" of the barrel channel were bedded with Devcon Steel epoxy. I have refined my bedding skills over the course of doing 6 rifles, some more than once. Practice bedding on a lesser rifle before attempting it on your finest, there are many little things to learn for a good result, but prep-work is key. Tape up the stock well, trim precisely, putty up any large voids in the stock/holes in the action, strip the action completely, and generously apply release agent. Take your time cleaning up the cured compound, and it will look sharp and professional.

Much information about tuning the ignition can be found on RFC, important is to re-shape the striker tip to hit just inside the rim edge, and de-burr/polish anything in/on the striker and bolt body that might hang up, drag, or otherwise interfere with smooth movement of the striker. The fly trigger must be adjusted for minimum sear engagement, while still holding the bolt in-place when cycling back, and not dragging on the striker when firing. It's a delicate balancing act that will show up as vertical on the target if out of adjustment, you just play with it until it's perfect. Rifle Basix or DIP sear are less troublesome, a John Langley trigger is perhaps the finest option available.

Final piece of the puzzle was using a Harrell's tuner to dial in the groups. I was not satisfied by the naked barrel shooting any of the ammo I have available to me (and it is an extensive collection from the major brands). I tested the tuner with a Harrell's weight set, which includes a heavy weight, and a lighter weight that can be screwed into the heavy weight as well. There were the combinations of Heavy, Light, Heavy + Light, and no weight attached to test, and with 500 click-stop settings on the tuner to go through with each weight combination... there is a significant amount of time and ammo required to be thorough about the testing. I am finding it best used without any added weight on this rifle.

Also, match barrels require frequent cleaning to maintain their top-notch accuracy. I notice a fade after 100 rounds, and frequent fliers above 150-200 rounds, so it is time to brush out the chamber/bore to restore accuracy.

View attachment 178879
This shot at 100 y just a old Remington

Very nice, my CZ is very capable of sub-moa at 100 yards, too. Here is a 100 yard target that reveals that I sometimes mess up a shot

 

[minimouse]

Take a little time--very, very little time as it turns out--to list all the many National, World, and Olympic titles won by shooters using CZ rimfire rifles. If you have questions about which brand is more accurate, why not start at the top levels of competition?

 

[redryder]

Take a little time--very, very little time as it turns out--to list all the many National, World, and Olympic titles won by shooters using CZ rimfire rifles. If you have questions about which brand is more accurate, why not start at the top levels of competition?

Succinct LOL

 

[22forever]

Take a little time--very, very little time as it turns out--to list all the many National, World, and Olympic titles won by shooters using CZ rimfire rifles. If you have questions about which brand is more accurate, why not start at the top levels of competition?

Or compare a factory 455 to a factory Anschutz not a 455 with a custom barrel with tuner, trigger and stock.

 

[NVShooter]

While it is recognized that an Anschütz is a definite upgrade in terms of fit/finish, trigger, and factory stock options, please show me that it is also an upgrade in accuracy worth 2-3x the cost of a customized CZ.

I can appreciate all of the time and expense you put in to this project and all of the joy and sense of accomplishment you got out of it (and a little bragging to boot) however, the result of you efforts is no longer a CZ 455 nor is it any-longer one half to one third the cost of a comparable-shooting Annie. Congrats on your gun and shooting, both very nice.

 

[RabidM4U5]

Take a little time--very, very little time as it turns out--to list all the many National, World, and Olympic titles won by shooters using CZ rimfire rifles. If you have questions about which brand is more accurate, why not start at the top levels of competition?

That is a market that CZ does not play in, and my question was rhetorical. I know full well that the typical factory Anschütz will out-perform the typical factory CZ, and that there is some slight overlap of the bell curves where to top-end CZs will shoot better than the mid-low end Anschütz. Don built many custom CZs during his time as a gunsmith, mainly for customers looking to get into PRS type matches, so perhaps you should look at what rifles are winning there too, before being so judgemental. He also customized Anschütz rifles, and would often fit a CZ magwell to the Annie for more reliable feeding It's no secret that I have strongly voiced my concerns about CZ's factory barrel making practices.... This example shows what a 455 can do if CZ were to take more care in their barrel making, for one thing.

Or compare a factory 455 to a factory Anschutz not a 455 with a custom barrel with tuner, trigger and stock.

Post #5 compares my custom CZ to my Custom 64 MSR, which also has a tuner but doesn't need a trigger or alternate stock (but the CZ trigger is still a CZ item...) I have also played around with a tuner on my 1416 barreled Weatherby XXII and got some nice results, but still a notch behind the Custom CZ. The point was, accuracy for dollars spent, and the cheapest new 64 action Annie I see on Nordic Marksman's website is a 1416 D HB Classic for $1299 pre-tax and shipping. That means a nearly equivalent price compared to a custom CZ (minus the Fly trigger, which doesn't add to the rifle IMO/IME) but I put forth that my custom CZ will outperform the average Anschütz for an equal or lessor price. I am sure there are some Annie's out there that can either hang with, or outperform my CZ, but they are in the minority at the top of the bell curve. The trade-off is that while you can get better accuracy for the money, you miss out on the Anschütz refinements such as their triggers, factory stock options, overall fit/finish, and just a plain more pleasurable action to operate. I will, in time, get my custom 64 MSR shooting equal to, if not better than, my custom CZ.

I can appreciate all of the time and expense you put in to this project and all of the joy and sense of accomplishment you got out of it (and a little bragging to boot) however, the result of you efforts is no longer a CZ 455 nor is it any-longer one half to one third the cost of a comparable-shooting Annie. Congrats on your gun and shooting, both very nice.

Thank you, but it is still a CZ, just a CZ with a Lilja barrel on it. A rifle is defined by it's action, and you'd call it a Stiller 2500X no matter if it wore a Krieger, Bartlien, Shilen, Benchmark, Lilja, Fedderson, or whatever other Custom barrel could be affixed to it. If you put this Stiller 2500X into a McMillan stock, or a custom one done up by a feller named Zorrow on RFC, it'd matter not, it's still a 2500X. At any rate, it is a silly argument to get into, like if one puts J&P action screws on their Anschütz rifle, is it now no longer technically an Anschütz? Where do we draw the line? What if you order from the Anschütz NA Custom Shop a rifle with a Lilja (or other specified) barrel, is that not an Anschütz rifle, either? But, my rifle is still at least 1/2 the cost of what could be a comparably performing rifle from Anschütz, as the 1913 BR-50 lists for $2995, so after tax and shipping divided by 2, you arrive at my CZ build cost, plus there are even more costly Anschütz rifles to be had from there... But do any of them come with an accuracy guarantee? (yes, they do, vaguely described as "excellent shooting performance", but no hard number at a specified distance.) Don Smith guaranteed his CZ builds to shoot in the 0.2's at 50 yards, better dependent on your own lot testing/tuning. I think that says it all, a customized CZ can do what the average factory Annie cannot guarantee.

 

[hoytcanon]

Boyd's Pro-Varmint stock with adjustable comb and high gloss finish = $423
Custom fit Lilja barrel = $780 (includes cost of blank, gunsmith fees, import fees + taxes/duties and shipping)
DIY pillaring/bedding = about $30
Total = $1563
Add Fly Trigger = $223 = $1786 (I would stick with factory trigger and Yo-Dave kit, same pull weight because the Fly must be tuned to the rifle, not whatever weight you desire as it can cause issues with sear drag and ignition if it isn't set just right, the pull weight is the pull weight once it's tuned, plus it has a mushy feeling break.)

One, you just pissed away a lot of money.
Two, you rigged the parameters here and I have no idea what you are trying to prove??? You have left no opportunity for any sort of reasonable apples to apples comparison. Why don't you do an out of box comparison... even the 453 vs 64, a more legitimate test... as it is, there is no way to compare equivalent "custom" jobs, because there is no such thing as an equivalent custom job.

This simply reads as an arrogant, vanity post... why don't you just say; "Hey CGN, look what I can do!"

 

[horseman2]

It is a matter of priorities, commitment and a desire to achieve a personal level of perfection.
He is not a politician spending other people's money but to each their own.
As the old cowboy said, "I spent most of my money on whiskey and women . . . the rest I just wasted".
While I have two CZ 455's that have had the firing pin reshaped, YoDave trigger kits and Pillar bedded but that is where it ends.
I did have a tuner on the Varmint and after taking it off once it never performed to the same level when reinstalled.
I personally enjoyed his trials and tribulations from the problems encountered to the end product.

 

[stubblejumper]

Either compare factory rifles, or compare customs, but comparing a custom to factory rifles is not a fair comparison of the firearms.

 

[kamlooky]

Either compare factory rifles, or compare customs, but comparing a custom to factory rifles is not a fair comparison of the firearms.

Dunnoh, I view it as how close a factory comes to a custom for accuracy.

 

[easyrider604]

.....Caution must be exercised to never dry-fire on the cone breech, or it will get a nasty ding requiring a chamber iron to repair. I store it with a snap-cap chambered, and with the bolt de-cocked by holding the trigger and gently closing the bolt. ........

I don't know what a cone breech is, but CZ452s have a firing pin stop that prevent the firing pin from striking or reaching the original stock flat breechface. It is totally safe to dry fire 452s.

Unless CZ has redesigned the 455 bolts, they should be safe to dry fire as well.

Nice build by the way. Customizing is not my thing but I admire enthusiasts who do.

 

[stubblejumper]

Dunnoh, I view it as how close a factory comes to a custom for accuracy.

One custom and one or two factory rifles prove very little. It could come down to which rifle likes the ammunition it is shooting best.

 

[.22LRGUY]

I think the thread should have been titled; "Look what a very expensive, highly-customized CZ can achieve", but I think I also get where the OP is coming from too. If you were to ask me what my favourite rifle brand was (for rimfires) the answer probably WOULD be CZ. However, I have 2 Anschutz rifles..the better of the two is a 64 MP R..and I've yet to handle a factory CZ/BRNO that shoots like that (factory) rifle does. I don't compete against anyone so taking target photos isn't a super-high priority for me..but I will when I get back to some bench work later in the summer. My CZ 452 will be back from the west too, I can do a side-by-side maybe...if the mood strikes.

As for the "CZ" in this thread~I think it's a nice enough looking thing, clearly the OP had a deep ($) desire to see what was possible with a 455. However, there isn't allot of CZ left in that thing so like others have pointed-out...I'm not sure how anything useful could come out of comparing it to a factory Anschutz.

Great shooting on the OP's part, I hope the process was fulfilling. Ultimately, our gun(s) have to please US....regardless of what shape they take, amount of $ spent, etc. The OP took the longer road, I sprung for an Anschutz instead. I don't consider my decision better/worse...but even after reading the thread starter, I'd probably do the same thing again.

 

[Canadiankeeper]

Good shooting! Nice CZ!

The answer is a stock Anschütz tops a stock CZ all day every day.

That custom cz is a thing of glory though! If I may ask, what was the final damage to the credit card all said and done ? Including all parts, fees and taxes ?

 

[RabidM4U5]

One, you just pissed away a lot of money.
This simply reads as an arrogant, vanity post...

One, I don't see it that way. I took on an interesting and challenging project that turned out to be a great success. I learned a lot about what makes a rifle accurate along the way, and how to work on rifles. I feel like I got great value for the money spent. I could have spent it on hookers and blow instead (though some might say that's not a waste, either ). Spent about the same on an Anschütz made Weatherby XXII that couldn't do the 1/2" challenge... until I replaced the barrel on it. As for a vanity post... Is that not what the forums are mainly for? With threads here entitled "show off your single shot .22s", "The (multiple high end rifle) picture thread", "Rimfire pics.. Show em off!" and the good 'ol 1/2" challenge, much of what goes on here is "hey guys, look what I bought!" "ooooh, nice rifle dude!" and "hey guys, look at my target!" "ooooh, nice shooting dude!". *shrug*. I am happy to share the things I've learned and help others improve their rifle's performance or try some customizing, no secrets kept here.

I don't know what a cone breech is, but CZ452s have a firing pin stop that prevent the firing pin from striking or reaching the original stock flat breechface. It is totally safe to dry fire 452s.

Unless CZ has redesigned the 455 bolts, they should be safe to dry fire as well.

Nice build by the way. Customizing is not my thing but I admire enthusiasts who do.

Thanks. The 455s with the standard breech face is also safe to dryfire, they haven't changed the bolt other than going down to a single lug. A cone breech is exactly what it sounds like, a breech machined to a cone shape. There is nothing to hold the bolt nose back, so momentum will carry the bolt nose forward over the cone and allow the firing pin to ding the cone. The firing pin stop doesn't matter if the bolt itself can move forward, which is the case with a cone breech.

I'm not sure how anything useful could come out of comparing it to a factory Anschutz.

Accuracy for dollars spent. A custom CZ costs less than most Anschütz rifles, and about equal to their entry level 64 models. A custom gives you excellent accuracy, guaranteed, while an Anschütz gives you a very well made rifle with good to very good accuracy, but a lottery for anything exceptional. I'm tired of playing lotteries... I haven't won on a single factory built rifle yet (well, my Savage MKII was better than most Savages, not like a custom though).

Good shooting! Nice CZ!

The answer is a stock Anschütz tops a stock CZ all day every day. No argument here

That custom cz is a thing of glory though! If I may ask, what was the final damage to the credit card all said and done ? Including all parts, fees and taxes ?

455 rifle parted out (sell stock and barrel) for donor action = $330
Boyd's Pro-Varmint stock with adjustable comb and high gloss finish = $423
Custom fit Lilja barrel = $780 (includes cost of blank, gunsmith fees, import fees + taxes/duties and shipping)
DIY pillaring/bedding = about $30
Total = $1563

Add Fly Trigger = $223 = $1786 (I would stick with factory trigger and Yo-Dave kit, same pull weight because the Fly must be tuned to the rifle, not whatever weight you desire as it can cause issues with sear drag and ignition if it isn't set just right, the pull weight is the pull weight once it's tuned, plus it has a mushy feeling break.)

The light barreled Anschütz 64 TT is $1695 before tax and shipping, $1849 for the heavier barreled MPR vesion

Even with the Fly trigger, it cost less than your 64 MPR Tactical Trainer! Actually, a little less than I've priced out since I received the barrel used on the rifle at no cost from Lilja as a replacement. I just paid djdilliodon his gunsmithing fees to machine the barrel. Reason is the barrel pictured above had the cone machined way too thin and split, we were looking at nearly $400 in import/export + shipping fees to send it round trip back to Lilja for repairs so they elected to just send up a replacement. The barrel with the split breech then got refit to my Remington 597 for a mere $100 by a smith here in Ontario. 2 for 1 custom barrel deal

 

[hoytcanon]

One, I don't see it that way. I took on an interesting and challenging project that turned out to be a great success. I learned a lot about what makes a rifle accurate along the way, and how to work on rifles. I feel like I got great value for the money spent. I could have spent it on hookers and blow instead (though some might say that's not a waste, either ). Spent about the same on an Anschütz made Weatherby XXII that couldn't do the 1/2" challenge... until I replaced the barrel on it. As for a vanity post... Is that not what the forums are mainly for? With threads here entitled "show off your single shot .22s", "The (multiple high end rifle) picture thread", "Rimfire pics.. Show em off!" and the good 'ol 1/2" challenge, much of what goes on here is "hey guys, look what I bought!" "ooooh, nice rifle dude!" and "hey guys, look at my target!" "ooooh, nice shooting dude!". *shrug*. I am happy to share the things I've learned and help others improve their rifle's performance or try some customizing, no secrets kept here.

I have no issue with vanity posts, I rather enjoy them and often validate the OP... but when they are disguised as a pseudo-scientific "experiment" with a title like "What Shoots Better: CZ or Anschutz?" And present ridiculously flawed conclusions and biased parameters, they deserve to be called out.

For the record, I have no bias in the results, as I own and shoot both Anschutz and CZ and appreciate both platforms. In factory configuration, Anschutz would win more often than not, and they should at the price point, however I currently have a CZ 453 Lux in unaltered condition that is more accurate with CCI Subsonic ammo than any Anschutz that I have ever owned. However, it would be asinine to conclude from that small sample that CZ rifles are "more" accurate.