I've had custom built rifles in the past that shot incredible . Every bit the equal or better than a high end factory rifle as far as raw accuracy goes . But , it's not really the same thing to me . There is just something special about owning an Anschutz rifle . The out of the box accuracy , fit and finish and company heritage of winning performance at the highest level make ownership special to me . If needs or interests change , a factory unmolested Anschutz typically retains a lot more resale value . The used market is full of customized rifles that sell for a fraction of what was invested in them . In my area , a nice clean unmolested Anschutz sells for darn near the retail price . I've owned a brand new CZ455 Varmint and it shot well , but , it was not even close to my MPR .
What Shoots Better: CZ or Anschütz?
- Thread starter RabidM4U5
- Start date
Back when I used to go to Friday night drag races, there were a couple guys who were related, one driving a Porsche 911, one in a highly modified turbo Nissan 240. In the end, the 240 was slightly quicker. It was a testament to the work the guy had done on the Nissan, but given that the Porsche was competing bone stock it was a testament to the Porsche as well. Which one would you rather own though?
Putting aside for the moment whether the comparison here is a fair one, I have enjoyed the description of how the project developed and succeeded. I've followed djdilliodon's posts on RFC for some time (and have to say that I've wondered how he could get away with the self-promotion and marketing of his services for so long on the forum!
). However, you say that he's now retired, so I guess we won't be hearing that much from him in the future. Here's a question: is there anyone in Canada performing the same accuracy gunsmithing work? I know about Henry Rempel (and have had him pillar-bed several rifles for me), and perhaps he could have done much the same work as you had djdilliodon do. Is there anyone else up here who could do that level of rebarreling, chambering, tuning the action, and stocking--basically turning out a winning rifle? I'm not in the market for this, but am curious. I've found the number of Canadian gunsmiths who could do really first-class stock work to be really tiny, and perhaps this extends to the more involved accuracy gunsmithing work too.
). However, you say that he's now retired, so I guess we won't be hearing that much from him in the future. Here's a question: is there anyone in Canada performing the same accuracy gunsmithing work? I know about Henry Rempel (and have had him pillar-bed several rifles for me), and perhaps he could have done much the same work as you had djdilliodon do. Is there anyone else up here who could do that level of rebarreling, chambering, tuning the action, and stocking--basically turning out a winning rifle? I'm not in the market for this, but am curious. I've found the number of Canadian gunsmiths who could do really first-class stock work to be really tiny, and perhaps this extends to the more involved accuracy gunsmithing work too.
One, I don't see it that way. I took on an interesting and challenging project that turned out to be a great success. I learned a lot about what makes a rifle accurate along the way, and how to work on rifles. I feel like I got great value for the money spent. I could have spent it on hookers and blow instead (though some might say that's not a waste, either
Thanks. The 455s with the standard breech face is also safe to dryfire, they haven't changed the bolt other than going down to a single lug. A cone breech is exactly what it sounds like, a breech machined to a cone shape. There is nothing to hold the bolt nose back, so momentum will carry the bolt nose forward over the cone and allow the firing pin to ding the cone. The firing pin stop doesn't matter if the bolt itself can move forward, which is the case with a cone breech.
Accuracy for dollars spent. A custom CZ costs less than most Anschütz rifles, and about equal to their entry level 64 models. A custom gives you excellent accuracy, guaranteed, while an Anschütz gives you a very well made rifle with good to very good accuracy, but a lottery for anything exceptional. I'm tired of playing lotteries... I haven't won on a single factory built rifle yet (well, my Savage MKII was better than most Savages, not like a custom though).
455 rifle parted out (sell stock and barrel) for donor action = $330
Boyd's Pro-Varmint stock with adjustable comb and high gloss finish = $423
Custom fit Lilja barrel = $780 (includes cost of blank, gunsmith fees, import fees + taxes/duties and shipping)
DIY pillaring/bedding = about $30
Total = $1563
Add Fly Trigger = $223 = $1786 (I would stick with factory trigger and Yo-Dave kit, same pull weight because the Fly must be tuned to the rifle, not whatever weight you desire as it can cause issues with sear drag and ignition if it isn't set just right, the pull weight is the pull weight once it's tuned, plus it has a mushy feeling break.)
The light barreled Anschütz 64 TT is $1695 before tax and shipping, $1849 for the heavier barreled MPR vesion
Even with the Fly trigger, it cost less than your 64 MPR Tactical Trainer! Actually, a little less than I've priced out since I received the barrel used on the rifle at no cost from Lilja as a replacement. I just paid djdilliodon his gunsmithing fees to machine the barrel. Reason is the barrel pictured above had the cone machined way too thin and split, we were looking at nearly $400 in import/export + shipping fees to send it round trip back to Lilja for repairs so they elected to just send up a replacement. The barrel with the split breech then got refit to my Remington 597 for a mere $100 by a smith here in Ontario. 2 for 1 custom barrel deal
Damn son that is awesome! If 22 barrels where more common it is definitly something worth doing ! Super cool having a rifle you can rattle specs for. What you changed, what it is now ect ect.
Makes it more personal ! I like it !
I gave up reading this thread about half way down the first post, when I saw the words Lilja.
Neither of these guns are off-the-rack 'as-bought' anymore, and haven't been since the replacement barrels were fitted.
That's the end of my input.
tac
Neither of these guns are off-the-rack 'as-bought' anymore, and haven't been since the replacement barrels were fitted.
That's the end of my input.
tac
If funds allow, both! I totally understand the pride of ownership for high-quality items that don't really "need" anything extra to give a high level performance, but there's also something thrilling about taking something that's "regular" and modding it for super-performance
. I enjoy both.There was a fellow who went by the handle "Sporter" on RFC awhile ago who seemed to be the guy around here capable (and interested) in working on rimfires, but otherwise I don't know of anyone else here who knows what they're doing with a rimfire. There is a gunsmith that I met at the Silhouette matches I've been going to, who could, at the very least, fit and chamber the barrels for a custom like I've done. I don't know how he is with bedding as I do that myself, and he's mainly an offhand shooter so all the other fine tuning of ignition and the like aren't necessary. I guess that leaves me as being one of the more knowledgeable folks about rimfire tuning, but I'm so wrapped up in my own projects I can't imagine taking on any other work (not that I'm advertising or suggesting people send anything to me, I don't really have time for it). So, I know where to send a barrel here for fitment to the action, but we're largely on our own for the rest of the work.
Tuner yes, but no lot testing of the ammo. I have (had) a single-lot brick of most of the high-end offerings from the Big 3 ammo manufacturers. Only one lot of the RWS was available for purchase in Canada at the time I bought it, with the following statement from Peter at Target Shooting Products: "I have only several cases of each type on the ammo you are interested in with same lots for each, RWS does not ship multiple lots unless a large number of cases are ordered." While it might be possible to scrounge up a handful of lots of the more popular brands such as SK and Lapua by perhaps purchasing from several suppliers across the Country (one supplier might even have a couple lots), lot testing in Canada is not really a practical reality, not to do it properly like people in the USA can where 10-20 lots are available from certain single suppliers at any given time.
I feel that lot testing is critical for anyone who is not using a tuner, but depending on an individual's accuracy requirements, it is less important when a tuner is used as I find that a rifle can be tuned to shoot pretty well any consistent ammo very well (for example, I can get SK ammo to shoot reliably in the 0.2's and 0.3's with a tuner). When the rifle is properly tuned, then ammo testing is necessary to improve performance into the 0.1's and low 0.2's, as it seems only excellent lots will reliably provide this level of accuracy. I'm still working on the definition of "properly tuned", and am still trying different settings and configurations with the tuner. Last time I was out with this rifle (after these results), I changed the tuner and produced a couple targets that ended up in the trash at the range, as they weren't even worth measuring. A couple spins of the tuner (I did not change the weight) and the rifle goes from being highly accurate to disappointing. It is very clear to me that rimfires are highly sensitive to barrel vibrations and anything that alters how the barrel vibrates. I feel silly now attempting to get excellent accuracy without a tuner on any of my rifles.
I certainly wouldn't be putting a tuner on a Chiappa Little Badger and expecting much to happen, but any Savage or CZ that is showing the user some accuracy potential just might benefit greatly from a tuner. It won't fix any rifle that has something fundamentally wrong with it (like a bad crown or burrs in the chamber), but I've been able to take ammo that grouped 3/4" avg down to 0.2's and 0.3's by using a tuner, so I believe it is less about matching the ammo to the gun, but to be buying quality, consistent ammo and modulating the gun to suit the ammo. My old Savage MKII (sold) probably would have shot extremely well with a tuner, it's one of the few Savages on the 1/2" challenge list and that was done naked barrel.
If you are honestly able to take ammo that grouped .75" ave. and shoot it into .2-.3 after tuning why would you go to the expense of getting quality consistent ammo? It obviously appears that with your techniques, that 0.75" ave. performing ammo is consistent and quality enough !
You may want to share those techniques with the rimfire testing facilities for Lapua and Eley. I'm sure they would be more than interested.
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- Location
- Ft. Mac. Alberta
Totally agree, if one is going to compare accuracy between two rifles they need to be factory rifles with no modifications .
cost? That has nothing to do with pure accuracy - try ten , ten shot groups from a machine rest and the difference will be seen .
my money is on Anschutz .
Cat
freezer filler
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Windsor, Ontario
Next time do a test including a Marlin Papoose and a Cooey 12ga w/22lr adapter...no sense including a Savage because it would surely beat all of them.
Oh hi Ronnie... You've been largely absent from this forum for a long time but... you see an opportunity to rip on me and jump right on in... You know, this was your chance to apologize to me for being such a jerk to me over the last couple years and say "congrats, you did a really nice job on this one", but no, people don't change and you're still an Eh Hole. For anyone new, Ronnie being a douche is nothing new...
What is it, jealousy that I had the financials for the rifles I bought? Or the success I obtained that you could not with your own rifles? Tell you what, buddy, just for you I'll take in that 455 you've been struggling with that can't do the 1/2" challenge. You just have to ship it to me. No charge, I'll see what I can do to get it shooting better. No guarantees on that factory barrel (dj doesn't guarantee factory barrels, either), and have you even borescoped the chamber yet? lol. I can guarantee that I won't make it worse, and we can sign a legally binding agreement to the effect that I'll buy you a new factory barrel from Wolverine if I do happen make it worse... so you've got nothing to lose but 1-way shipping. Only catch for you is that if/when I do get it shooting better, you have to publicly apologize to me here
It's totally worth it for me to see you admit that you're wrong, a jerk, and that I actually know what I'm doing. I stand by my word. Send me the rifle, or are you truly a coward? You've been called out. Answer.What? I've had people PM me asking about doing work... Just making it clear that I'm not in the market to take on projects for others. This is a hobby for me, not a profession. There is nothing inaccurate about my statement. Name me a rimfire specialist gunsmith in Canada... Right? I can't name one either. I certainly know more about rimfire accuracy than 999/1000 John Doe's at the shooting range, and even had to be very specific about the work I needed done with several gunsmiths I've dealt with in Canada, as they were not familiar with certain aspects of rimfire building, even though they were (mostly, I did encounter a hack) plenty capable of doing the work as instructed. That plainly demonstrates that I am "more knowledgeable" than most in Canada, doesn't mean I'm the "Supreme Rimfire Builder Extraordinaire", but I can clearly do a pretty decent job when provided quality components
. I understand it's difficult for you to realize exactly what skills and knowledge I have based on limited internet forum postings, especially pertaining to subjects that have very divisive opinions. For example, some groups of people still openly ridicule Bill Calfee about his thoughts on rimfire tuning, even though he developed the original "muzzle device". Haters gunna hate. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯I'm sorry you get that impression, though I did word my OP with a certain tinge of "I told you so" for some people that needed it... But in all seriousness I'm not in any position to commit to doing work for others in a timely manner, and since I believe in doing things right I'd have to invest some serious $$ into tooling that I'm just not able to do at this time. Would the Canadian market even support a full-time rimfire builder? Can't make a living off the occasional person that wants pillars or a re-crown.. anyway, I started refinishing one of my rifles over a year ago, still not done... among the many personal projects I have on the go... how can I honestly say I'm available for work? If I could commit to it, I genuinely believe I could offer excellent service to a niche market in rimfire building (CZ specialty). It's too bad nobody is able to say they are good at something without coming across as a braggart.
I apologize, I should have been more specific (as if my posts weren't getting lengthy already...). Out of a specific rifle (Weatherby XXII), the ammo in question (SK Rifle Match) grouped 3/4" avg. The rifle would shoot only the Midas + I had into the 0.3's without a tuner, Center-X 0.5"-0.6". The SK Rifle Match would, naturally, group differently out of other rifles it was tested in (mostly better than my XXII). My tuner fit the XXII as I received it before I had it bored out for my CZ Custom. I briefly tested my XXII with the tuner, and achieved the significant improvement in results as previously mentioned. I did not get around to testing Midas + with a tuner on my XXII. To show you what I mean, here is, first, the target results naked barrel. As you can see, accuracy kinda sucks, except with Midas +. This is an Anschütz made rifle, btw, rebarreled with a 1416 D HB barrel (factory take-off from djdilliodon), because I could never get the OEM barrel to shoot well. New barrel was picky, but it could shoot.
Now with a tuner (Harrels, with both light and heavy weight attachment). It is clear, there was nothing wrong with the SK ammo or the rifle, it was a simple matter of tuning (as if tuning is "simple"...) I didn't have to "match" the ammo to the rifle, I made the rifle shoot the ammo.
No no no, you see it is already a well established fact that Anschütz does a much better job with their barrel making than CZ, but we have many people saying that the 455 can't shoot, not like the 452 or 453, anyway. It's all BS from people who don't know what they're talking about. 455 action + good barrel = better accuracy than the majority of factory Anschütz. People can stop blaming the 455 action for being the downfall of CZ, it's the lack of care CZ takes in crowning and chambering what might otherwise be pretty good barrels, plus the ignition needs some tweaking. Once you square away the barrel and ignition... the 455 shoots...
Thats the bet for of self medicating I have found in a long time and doesnt cost much either.
Rob
