3 Days Left Until Swiss Arms Grandfathering Deadline!!!

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fenceline said:
3rd reading for the House.... still needs 3 in the senate and senate commitee.

If it passes... it only means the restricteds are affected by the june date.

Non restricteds are a 1 year deadline from when c71 becomes law.

So either the retailer doesn't understand the law or legal process... or is trying to drive sales based misinformation dissemination.
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Sir, you are awesome
 
If its NR now, no record of transfer. How do they k ow you bought one prior to June30th? Or do u call in to register it before june 30th?
 
tomo333 said:
Bill C-71 is not law.
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No, it isn't, but if it ever is, June 30 is the eligibility date for grandfathering.

fenceline said:
3rd reading for the House.... still needs 3 in the senate and senate commitee.

If it passes... it only means the restricteds are affected by the june date.

Non restricteds are a 1 year deadline from when c71 becomes law.

So either the retailer doesn't understand the law or legal process... or is trying to drive sales based misinformation dissemination.
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Lets read the law together shall we? We both know the senate can change it, but unless they do...

Grandfathered individuals — CZ rifle
(10) An individual is eligible to hold a licence authorizing the individual to possess one or more firearms referred to in subsection (11) if
(a) the individual possessed one or more such firearms on June 30, 2018;
(b) the individual
(i) held on that day a registration certificate for one or more such firearms, in the case where at least one of those firearms was on that day a restricted firearm, or
(ii) applies, before the first anniversary of the commencement day, for a registration certificate that is subsequently issued for a firearm referred to in subsection (11), in any other case; and
(c) the individual was continuously the holder of a registration certificate for one or more such firearms beginning on
(i) June 30, 2018, in the case where at least one of those firearms was on that day a restricted firearm, or
(ii) the day on which a registration certificate referred to in subparagraph (b)(ii) is issued to the individual, in any other case.
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SO lets this parse this out. See that and, it means the requirements of A, B AND C, need to be met in order to be eligible for grandfathering. See the or, it means that either (i) or (ii) must be met in order to satisfy the parent clause.

A.
B. either I or II, and,
C. either I or II.

A. Straightforward, not negotiable. It needs to be possessed on or before that date.
B. If the firearm is restricted on June 30th (before the bill comes into force), then it has to be registered on June 30th and the owner has to have the certificate, otherwise they have one year from coming into force to apply for a registration certificate.
C. You have to continuously have held a registration certificate from either the 30th of June, if it was restricted, or the day which a certificate was issued, ie after coming into force.

You must meet all three of these, FOREVER, in order to continuously be eligible for grandfathering.

If you didn't possess at least one before June 30, you are not eligible. (A)
If you possess one that is currently considered restricted, but it was not registered on June 30, you are not eligible. (Bi)
If you possess one that is currently considered non-restricted and have not applied to register it as prohibited within one year of coming into force, you are not eligible, (Bii)
If at any point from June 30th for current restricted , or coming into force of the bill for current non-restricteds, you have not held a valid certificate for one, IE sold your last one, or registration expires or is revoked, then you are no longer eligible. (Ci for Res) or (Cii for NR)

As for businesses, they may be able to keep and sell them after C71 comes into force, but they will only be able to sell them to people already grandfathered, as such the market of available buyers is greatly reduced, and likewise will be the value of the firearms. I don't think any business holding these rifles is trying to drive sales. If they were they would be buying more inventory while they could. I don't see that happening. All I see is them trying to hedge their bets and not get stuck with a hot potato when the music stops, and I don't blame them.

tharkhold said:
to be 'grandfathered' into keeping your currently non-restricted 858/Swiss Arms, you have to possess (own) it before a deadline. After that, you can't purchase it without have the then new 12.9 prohibited class on your PAL
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Note quite. The law hasn't changed yet. You actually will be able to purchase it at any time from June 30 until the law changes that makes its prohibited, which likely won't be until the fall. You just won't be given the 12.X prohibited status to legally keep it as a registered prohibited if you purchase it between July 1st and that date, if it ever comes.

Its worth pointing out, since I don't think it has ever been really discussed, that the coming into force provisions of this bill make it possible that the bill can come into force without the sections that affect the CZs and Swiss Arms, meaning that C71 can pass and the CZ/Swiss could be completely un-affected, or those prohibition/grandfathering provisions might not come into force until years later.
 
Cameron SS said:
No, it isn't, but if it ever is, June 30 is the eligibility date for grandfathering.



Lets read the law together shall we? We both know the senate can change it, but unless they do...



SO lets this parse this out. See that and, it means the requirements of A, B AND C, need to be met in order to be eligible for grandfathering. See the or, it means that either (i) or (ii) must be met in order to satisfy the parent clause.

A.
B. either I or II, and,
C. either I or II.

A. Straightforward, not negotiable. It needs to be possessed on or before that date.
B. If the firearm is restricted on June 30th (before the bill comes into force), then it has to be registered on June 30th and the owner has to have the certificate, otherwise they have one year from coming into force to apply for a registration certificate.
C. You have to continuously have held a registration certificate from either the 30th of June, if it was restricted, or the day which a certificate was issued, ie after coming into force.

You must meet all three of these, FOREVER, in order to continuously be eligible for grandfathering.

If you didn't possess at least one before June 30, you are not eligible. (A)
If you possess one that is currently considered restricted, but it was not registered on June 30, you are not eligible. (Bi)
If you possess one that is currently considered non-restricted and have not applied to register it as prohibited within one year of coming into force, you are not eligible, (Bii)
If at any point from June 30th for current restricted , or coming into force of the bill for current non-restricteds, you have not held a valid certificate for one, IE sold your last one, or registration expires or is revoked, then you are no longer eligible. (Ci for Res) or (Cii for NR)

As for businesses, they may be able to keep and sell them after C71 comes into force, but they will only be able to sell them to people already grandfathered, as such the market of available buyers is greatly reduced, and likewise will be the value of the firearms. I don't think any business holding these rifles is trying to drive sales. If they were they would be buying more inventory while they could. I don't see that happening. All I see is them trying to hedge their bets and not get stuck with a hot potato when the music stops, and I don't blame them.



Note quite. The law hasn't changed yet. You actually will be able to purchase it at any time from June 30 until the law changes that makes its prohibited, which likely won't be until the fall. You just won't be given the 12.X prohibited status to legally keep it as a registered prohibited if you purchase it between July 1st and that date, if it ever comes.

Its worth pointing out, since I don't think it has ever been really discussed, that the coming into force provisions of this bill make it possible that the bill can come into force without the sections that affect the CZs and Swiss Arms, meaning that C71 can pass and the CZ/Swiss could be completely un-affected, or those prohibition/grandfathering provisions might not come into force until years later.
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No. The law is not retro active and you have 1 year from the law taking effect to register, that is if you admit you own one. C-71 is far from being passed as law. Stop spreading false information. The vendor needs to stop trying to capitalize on false info and fear mongering.
 
AB_blaster said:
No. The law is not retro active and you have 1 year from the law taking effect to register, that is if you admit you own one. C-71 is far from being passed as law. Stop spreading false information. The vendor needs to stop trying to capitalize on false info and fear mongering.
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If you are going to say no, throw your rattle and accuse me of spreading false information, the least you can do is acknowledge what I wrote and provide a competing interpretation. I referenced the actual bill itself, as it currently reads on the official parliament of Canada website. No part of that can be considered false information.

The part about needing to satisfy parts A, B, and C, of Section 12.10 of the Firearms act after that section comes into force, in order to be eligible for grandfathering is a simple matter of plain English and basic sentence structure. I invite you to share with the class why you think any part of that is incorrect. I especially look forward to debating what 'and' means.

You are correct that the law is not retroactive, at least not in this case. Bill C71 does in fact contain retroactive provisions with regards to long gun registry data, but that is a separate matter.

There is a difference between retroactivity, and cut off dates.

Retroactivity means you can be criminally charged for something you did last year for something that was only made illegal this year. C71 does not contain any retroactive sanctions.

You can not be charged for possession of a prohibited CZ just because you possessed it before C 71 made it prohibited.

That is a different matter from grandfathering eligibility. If you buy one of the subject firearms on July 1st, or later, you will not be allowed to keep once C71 comes into force. You won't be charged for having had it before coming into force, you just won't be allowed to keep it either.

Read the 12.x provisions of the Firearms Act as it currently reads. http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/F-11.6/FullText.html

The firearms act came into force in 1998, and yet to be eligible for grandfathered ownership of 12.2 prohibs you need to have owned one prior to Jan 2, 1978, more than 20 years prior. Also the firearms in question only needed to be registered as prohibited upon commencement day of the firearms act, and a registration certificate continuously held afterwards.

In fact if you read the way that all of the 12.x sections are structured, they basically follow the same A, B, C format.

A) Need to have owned by some fixed date,
B) Need to have it registered by the first day it is legally required to be registered, and,
C) Need to maintain valid registration continuously.

The vendor isn't trying to capitalize on false info or fear mongering. IF C71 becomes law, the only people they will be able to sell those guns to are people who already own them, and probably aren't interested in paying full price to own a pile of them. Vendors are rightly trying to dodge a bullet, let they get caught with inventory of significantly diminished value. The motivation of the vendors is pretty clear. Whats yours?
 
fluidmax said:
nice way to drive up sales and won't get stuck with the inventory after C71 passes.
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If its just a gimmick why not wait until the day before C71 comes into force and you will be able to buy all remaining stock at fire sale prices. Wait a year until the conservatives repeal the legislation and then sell them all at full retail. Businesses have way more skin in the game than you and I. It disappoints me how quick to malign them some of us are.
 
So you load your shelves with Swiss expecting to capitalize on the grandfather status.
So in 3 days you will be stuck with a bunch of expensive gun that will be worth next to nothing. Your market will go from everyone with a pal to a handful of people that already own a Swiss if what you say is true. Prohibited's sell on the EE for 25% of there original value if your lucky, I can see why your pushing the sales of these firearms.
Just my thoughts on the whole thing.
 
BiggerDigger said:
So you load your shelves with Swiss expecting to capitalize on the grandfather status.
So in 3 days you will be stuck with a bunch of expensive gun that will be worth next to nothing. Your market will go from everyone with a pal to a handful of people that already own a Swiss if what you say is true. Prohibited's sell on the EE for 25% of there original value if your lucky, I can see why your pushing the sales of these firearms.
Just my thoughts on the whole thing.
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Did they load their shelves? Guys this is the dealers forum. If you want to slam them, have the courtesy to take it to the general discussion.
 
Cameron SS said:
If its just a gimmick why not wait until the day before C71 comes into force and you will be able to buy all remaining stock at fire sale prices. Wait a year until the conservatives repeal the legislation and then sell them all at full retail. Businesses have way more skin in the game than you and I. It disappoints me how quick to malign them some of us are.
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Would they? :(
 
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