3 Days Left Until Swiss Arms Grandfathering Deadline!!!

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Cameron SS said:
If you are going to say no, throw your rattle and accuse me of spreading false information, the least you can do is acknowledge what I wrote and provide a competing interpretation. I referenced the actual bill itself, as it currently reads on the official parliament of Canada website. No part of that can be considered false information.

The part about needing to satisfy parts A, B, and C, of Section 12.10 of the Firearms act after that section comes into force, in order to be eligible for grandfathering is a simple matter of plain English and basic sentence structure. I invite you to share with the class why you think any part of that is incorrect. I especially look forward to debating what 'and' means.

You are correct that the law is not retroactive, at least not in this case. Bill C71 does in fact contain retroactive provisions with regards to long gun registry data, but that is a separate matter.

There is a difference between retroactivity, and cut off dates.

Retroactivity means you can be criminally charged for something you did last year for something that was only made illegal this year. C71 does not contain any retroactive sanctions.

You can not be charged for possession of a prohibited CZ just because you possessed it before C 71 made it prohibited.

That is a different matter from grandfathering eligibility. If you buy one of the subject firearms on July 1st, or later, you will not be allowed to keep once C71 comes into force. You won't be charged for having had it before coming into force, you just won't be allowed to keep it either.

Read the 12.x provisions of the Firearms Act as it currently reads. http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/F-11.6/FullText.html

The firearms act came into force in 1998, and yet to be eligible for grandfathered ownership of 12.2 prohibs you need to have owned one prior to Jan 2, 1978, more than 20 years prior. Also the firearms in question only needed to be registered as prohibited upon commencement day of the firearms act, and a registration certificate continuously held afterwards.

In fact if you read the way that all of the 12.x sections are structured, they basically follow the same A, B, C format.

A) Need to have owned by some fixed date,
B) Need to have it registered by the first day it is legally required to be registered, and,
C) Need to maintain valid registration continuously.

The vendor isn't trying to capitalize on false info or fear mongering. IF C71 becomes law, the only people they will be able to sell those guns to are people who already own them, and probably aren't interested in paying full price to own a pile of them. Vendors are rightly trying to dodge a bullet, let they get caught with inventory of significantly diminished value. The motivation of the vendors is pretty clear. Whats yours?
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Sorry doesn't add up. Do tell, how does the gov prove I owned a CZ or swiss before their magical non legal cutoff date?? Seeing as the CFC is not accepting registration for non res variants of the rifles in question how does one go about getting it on the books?

Her's a snippet from a response another member received from the horse cops.

"The RCMP is continuously reviewing its website content to ensure that it addresses the issues as efficiently, and with as much clarity, as possible. The website text has since been adjusted to avoid any potential confusion regarding the status of the legislation. This is part of regular work that is undertaken, making every effort to provide the most current information on our website.

The information provided on the Bill C-71 web pages are intended to inform those who have potentially affected CZ and SA firearms currently in their possession of their options and eligibility requirements for grandfathering, should the Bill be brought into force as law. The website only instructs individuals to register any firearms that are currently, by law, required to be registered. Any client in possession of a CZ firearm that is currently classified as being restricted, must have that firearm registered with the Registrar of Firearms to avoid being in illegal possession of their firearm. This current registration requirement is tied to the proposed provisions of Bill C-71, as it would become a condition for grandfathering.

The date of June 30, 2018, which is outlined in the proposed Bill, has been put forward as a cut-off point for eligibility for grandfathering of any potentially affected CZ or SA firearm and their owners.

Until Bill C-71 becomes law, individuals and businesses are entitled to possess their CZ or SA firearm, as long as they meet the proper licence conditions and any applicable registration requirements currently associated with the class of firearm which they own.

Note the last sentence. Permitted to keep your CZ/SA if you're appropriately licensed and any registration requirements are met. Seeing as they are non restricted there is no registration requirement. And no, you can't enforce the deadline of a bill that isn't LAW.

Link to the thread
https://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php/1740486-RCMP-response-to-my-email-from-May-5th
 
tharkhold said:
to be 'grandfathered' into keeping your currently non-restricted 858/Swiss Arms, you have to possess (own) it before a deadline. After that, you can't purchase it without have the then new 12.9 prohibited class on your PAL
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regarding the grandfather, does it mean you don't need a Restrict PAL to own that firearm, but can you still use it like a non restricted? (hunting etc, instead of just shooting at the range)
 
God this turned into a #### show fast.

My big question is ..... If Wanstalls truly believes these are going to be prohibited, and they are not aloud to sell prohibited weapons..... Why are these not like 200$ because anything is better then nothing, especially when you as a business now have paper weights that you are not aloud to do anything with.

"Come get your 3500$ rifles, that are to be prohibited in 3 days... Full price...."

Yeah talk to me in 3 days, and see how much they are worth.

I just don't see any logic in this, unless it's just a complete crook of ####.
 
They can always export them if they don’t sell.

The way the law is written Cameron SS is right, enforcing that law with non-restricteds would prove difficult as the government can not prove you owned it before or after June 30, 2018 unless you tell them.

Why does no one stop and think? Everyone just screams (writes in caps lol) their thoughts and anyone who disagrees is an enemy. No wonder the government is winning, we fight each other more then we fight them.

Good luck with your sales Wanstalls.
 
AB_blaster said:
Sorry doesn't add up. Do tell, how does the gov prove I owned a CZ or swiss before their magical non legal cutoff date?? Seeing as the CFC is not accepting registration for non res variants of the rifles in question how does one go about getting it on the books?

Until Bill C-71 becomes law, individuals and businesses are entitled to possess their CZ or SA firearm, as long as they meet the proper licence conditions and any applicable registration requirements currently associated with the class of firearm which they own.

Note the last sentence. Permitted to keep your CZ/SA if you're appropriately licensed and any registration requirements are met. Seeing as they are non restricted there is no registration requirement. And no, you can't enforce the deadline of a bill that isn't LAW.

Link to the thread
https://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php/1740486-RCMP-response-to-my-email-from-May-5th
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The government does not need to prove that you owned a certain firearm before the magical cut off date. YOU will need to prove that you did in order meet the eligibility criteria.

The CFC is not permitting registration of Non-Restricted firearms because the law does not permit the registration of Non-Restricted firearms. Some of the firearms are restricted currently, and those need to be registered as restricted NLT June 30 in order to eligible for grandfathering as prohibited firearms as soon as C71 makes them prohibited.

Once C71 comes into force, the subject firearms will be prohibited, and at that time owners which are eligible for grandfathering will be able to register them as such. The only people claiming that Non-restricted firearms need to be registered now are hysterical gun owners.

And yes, they can enforce a deadline for grandfathering that passed before the bill came into force. Just ask any of the owners of 12.2, 12.3, 12.4, 12.5 prohib owners whose deadline for grandfathering had passed years before the firearms act came into force. In the case of 12.2 prohibs, the deadline was 20 years prior. So yes, yes they can.

macaufoto said:
regarding the grandfather, does it mean you don't need a Restrict PAL to own that firearm, but can you still use it like a non restricted? (hunting etc, instead of just shooting at the range)
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Technically you do not need an RPAL in order to hold a prohibited license, but you do need to complete the Canadian Restricted Firearms Safety Course, unless you intend to possess the prohibited firearms on a possession only basis. Since the POLs and PALs got merged by C42, there are not a lot of possession only licenses left, basically just the 12.6.1 owners who hold a 12.7 prohibited license. Remains to be seen whether they would issue a possession only 12.11 or 12.14. Could probably call the CFO on three different days and get three different answers.

In either case, no, you can not use a prohibited firearm like a non-restricted. It is prohibited. You will never be allowed to hunt with it. You will never be allowed to shoot it on crown land or private property that is not your dwelling house. You may get an ATT for the range, but you will have to apply for it separately, and nothing guarantees the CFO will issue it.
 
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Ilove12gshotguns said:
God this turned into a #### show fast.

My big question is ..... If Wanstalls truly believes these are going to be prohibited, and they are not aloud to sell prohibited weapons..... Why are these not like 200$ because anything is better then nothing, especially when you as a business now have paper weights that you are not aloud to do anything with.

"Come get your 3500$ rifles, that are to be prohibited in 3 days... Full price...."

Yeah talk to me in 3 days, and see how much they are worth.

I just don't see any logic in this, unless it's just a complete crook of ####.
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For the next two days they can sell them legally to anyone who will then be eligible to continue to own them. After which they will be selling them to people who are either ignorant of the pending law or unconcerned with compliance. In any event, once C71 passes the senate and royal assent is imminent, I am sure any remaining firearms in inventory will likely be available for significantly discounted prices getting purchased by buyers looking to pay cash only.
 
There was a update on the Quebec registry, had gone from 3 to 6 % registration.

Will they publish numbers of registered/eligible for grandfathering rifles compared.to actual sales records of rifles in country.

Would make for a interesting access to information request.
 
nowarningshot said:
There was a update on the Quebec registry, had gone from 3 to 6 % registration.

Will they publish numbers of registered/eligible for grandfathering rifles compared.to actual sales records of rifles in country.

Would make for a interesting access to information request.
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6%. I am sure by the time the amnesty expires next January the estimates will be near 100% compliance. Lies, damn lies, and government statistics.

The 6% number is based on the bold assumption that ALL of the guns in Quebec were registered when the old registry died in 2012, and that no new guns were bought since them. The real number is probably less than 2%, maybe less than 1%.
For what its worth, in 1977 the RCMP were estimating there were potentially 20 million or more firearms in Canada. By 1995 and onwards, despite a largely one way (import) street on international firearms trade, that number was getting down wardly revised regularly until 2003 when the estimate just slightly higher than the number of registered firearms, in order to make compliance look good.

Two years ago or so everyone made a big to do about the fact that there was more than a million restricted and prohibited firearms in Canada, based on the registry numbers. IN 1994 it was estimated there were more than 1.2 million restricted handguns, let alone rifles.

Lies, damn lies, and government statistics.
 
Watched a CSSA video with Tony Bernardo. He said there are import documents for 27 million firearms to Kanada. What was the highest number in the LGR? Something like 7.5 -10 million?

Regardless, Quebec has about 25-30% of.the Kanadian population. Now that their is a non liberal provincial government in Ontario, it would.seem unlikely that province follows with a provincial registry. Between them, with more than half the population, it would have been hard to stop every other province setting up registration.
 
The Speaker of the House has threatened to have the RCMP held in Contempt of Parliament on this very issue (spreading false information about the status of said firearms, what is law, what is not law, etc and the RCMP have since changed the information on their website)

Its not the law yet, may never be, and even if it becomes law, there is no way for any government agency to know with 100% certainty with regards to currently legal NON restricted firearms who owned what on what day.

Fear mongering here at best.
 
You suggested we should have the courtesy take this to general discussion this being a dealer form,but there you are still beaking off. Or was that suggestion just for everyone else as your thought are more important than what everyone else thinks. I think you need to give yourself a good talking to.
Your a real piece of work aren't you SS
 
BiggerDigger said:
You suggested we should have the courtesy take this to general discussion this being a dealer form,but there you are still beaking off. Or was that suggestion just for everyone else as your thought are more important than what everyone else thinks. I think you need to give yourself a good talking to.
Your a real piece of work aren't you SS
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Beaking off, if thats the word you want to use. What do you say about calling someone a piece of work?

In any event, I didnt say to take the conversation to the general forum. Just the posts about slamming and shaming a dealer in their own subforum. Its kind of like being a guest in someones house and putting your shoes on their couch.

I welcome any and all particpants to any discussion. Stay classy.
 
It’s more like being in the store and having a difficult discussion with the sales manager. What’s wrong with asking tough questions about the advertising, especially if you were not sure what the correct answer is with regards to the situation
 
Alright, well that's the lock.

For the record, we're just passing information we are receiving as a result of direct and most recent correspondence we receive between the distributor and CFO.

If you're interested in the rifles and want your legal bases covered according to C-71 as it is now written (though not yet passed) deadlines, have at er' - if you don't, well there's always a someone/somewhere on the internet to argue about interpretation of law feel - free to go seek them out.

We're placing these to order... we're not sitting on stock in a panic or trying to fear monger here guys. No one has a crystal ball to determine if C-71 will pass or what the final bill may look like - we're just trying to give the public as many options as possible, and as always you make your own decisions with your hard earned dollars as you see fit.
 
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