AR15 Quality comparison
- Thread starter Casperpan68
- Start date
Top quality TDP or (+) AR's ( Colt, Colt Canada, BCM, LMT, FN, DD, Sabre ) $$$
Decent TDP "pattern" AR's ( Armalite, Bushmaster, Windam Weaponry, DPMS, Palmetto, S&W, Stag, Aero, Core 15, CMMG, Troy, Spikes) $$
High end, Piston OR Stoner rifles ( Knights, SIG, Barrett, H&K Cobalt, Larue, POF, Noveske, ATRS ) $$$$$
Bargain basement ( anything chinese) $
Crap (NEA)
I like your list, but personally I wouldn't put BCM above your Decent TDP "pattern" AR's level. (Just my opinion.)
r34skyline
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
The M&P sport is known to deviate from spec, and is definitely a rung below the top shelf ars.
First point... 4140 steel... some random coating on the barrel. The bottom of the spec is button rifled chrome lined 4150 steel, most of the current top shelf ars are going one step further with chf barrels. Profile is wrong as well
Second point 6061 receiver instead of 7075.
Third point receiver extension nut is not staked
4th point, the bolt or barrel is not hp tested or mp inspected individually as they are supposed to be... nor is the material known.
It's definitely a hobby gun and if it is issued to a leo, AB blaster is on point someone in procurement messed up hard or the department is really that cash strapped that they can't afford carbines for their ground guys. I would like to know which department it is that runs them.
Why? BCM rifles follow tdp. The top tier is milspec or better... and bcm falls into that category, if anything bcm barrels can be chf so they are one step up on colt usa if anything.
Good ol CGN...
I think one of the bigger things to look at when making any of these grading is Forging vs. Billet in both the uppers and lowers. Consider a large factory may not maintain their tooling and over time the "same" function on a billet block may not yield identical parts. I'd look for a larger company doing billet that has some sort of program to ensure spec like H&K or SIG. That said I think both used forged for the commercially sold guns and billet for the Military Contract Guns (at least the 416).
I'd be more apt to look for a manufacture making billet stuff, I know that ATRS's stuff seems all to be billet, so you pay a bit more, but I think that's warranted. Look at the forge marks on most of the S&W's, and DMPS and you will start to see a pattern, doubt S&W does anything with their rifles other than assemble them.
I'd be more apt to look for a manufacture making billet stuff, I know that ATRS's stuff seems all to be billet, so you pay a bit more, but I think that's warranted. Look at the forge marks on most of the S&W's, and DMPS and you will start to see a pattern, doubt S&W does anything with their rifles other than assemble them.
Billet vs forged has zero effect on the reliability or durability of the rifle. Most manufacturers source their forgings from one of a handful of forging houses. It is the final machining done in house(or not) that makes the difference. An In spec(that is milspec) receiver is in spec regardless of forging mark or manufacturer. The list of top quality TDP rifles are those made to spec with proper materials and methods. And yes, the method(s) of production are just as important as the materials used.
The reality is that if you're looking for the same quality required by the military, Colt Canada is your best bet - and probably the cheapest too. Unless of course your particular version of "Milspec" includes the Iranians and the Paraguayans - in which case you go with Norinco. AR vendors that make actual military guns are : Colt Can, FN, KAC, LMT and Norinco. Colt USA's civilian division does not make military firearms - that's why they're the civilian division. I'm not sure why people obsess about Milspec here in Canada, after all both the Iltis and MLVW are Milspec, and no one is knocking anyone's door down to get them.
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r34skyline
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Why you got an iltis, because then I'm knocking that door down.
And other than the fn mil collector series it has already been established their standard civvie lineup is not to spec. There has been multiple threads on m4carbine on this topic. And the colt le69xx lineup barring the selector setting extra pinhole is comparable to their contract gun. And I'm sure norinco is fine by iranian standards but no they are not up to our spec.
The obsession on milspec is it's a good baseline, and marques that fail to meet even these baselines are not good enough for some consumers, are fine for others, it's a good minimum standard to meet. And if you want to get pedantic you can ask which milspec I would guess for most people they are referring to us milspec. And some that you can't classify as milspec exceed their standards like the PWS guns or Knights to name a few.
I've owned Colt Canada and DD rifles and I've built several guns using BCM parts, and I don't think BCM is on the same level as CC or DD. One of my first builds was all BCM and it shot slightly less accurate than my CC, DD and a Windham that I used to own. Also, I purchased a BCM BCG that had the gas key installed crooked. I knew I'd ruffle a few feathers with my comment, but from my experience BCM is somewhat overrated. The only BCM parts I use in my guns now are LPKs, buffer assemblies, grips and butt stocks.
r34skyline
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
That list says TDP or TDP +
Going by the us mil spec DD or CC guns exceed them by some margin. Outright accuracy, my experience cc guns are more accurate, the bcm is still sub 2 moa, which means it's more accurate than the 2 moa aimpoint mounted on top of it, and in my experience is more accurate than the colt le6920(which also provides adequate accuracy with the right loads). As for the crooked gas key, that sucks to hear, hopefully you contacted them for a replacement because they would have provided one... mind you my bcm upper has a dd bcg in it.
And on a sidenote having limited experiences with a windham i don't expect it to work on the same level any of the top line ars(including bcm).
Sorry to hear about the BCM troubles. Ever since they became bigger their quality control seems to be less than it was a few years back. That being said, they do follow TDP as close as they can in materials and tolerances. I agree DD and CC are better IMHO.
Are you absolutely certain you received a BCM BCG? How was the bolt marked? If you did get a bad part they would make it right as R34 already posted. BCM is the only company to have their materials independently tested, proving they use milspec materials and methods. Not saying Colt, CC, LMT , or DD are liars but they haven't provided proof to the contrary. Something to think about.
Yes, it was purchased new. It wasn't badly crooked, but I would have had to tweak the gas tube a bit for a perfect fit. Maybe I'm overly picky, however I wasn't able to get sub 2 moa groups out of my BCM build, as someone above mentioned. I'm just going by my experience with BCM, which is somewhat limited.
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Being built to the milspec tdp the rifle doesn't need to be sub 2moa to pass. I believe They need to shoot between 2-4 moa to be accepted. They are service rifles not precision rifles after all.
Travis Bickle
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Upper Lower Middle Alberta
I have been heavily abusing my DA556 Norc.
I mean shooting it hard and fast. Almost to the point of trying to break it.
And it just keeps going without pause.
It is surprisingly accurate.
Norinco AR's are good to go. Low price but high quality. Definitely higher quality than they get credit for anyhow.
I mean shooting it hard and fast. Almost to the point of trying to break it.
And it just keeps going without pause.
It is surprisingly accurate.
Norinco AR's are good to go. Low price but high quality. Definitely higher quality than they get credit for anyhow.
I have to agree, I've had the same experience with my DA556, although I probably haven't run mine as hard as you. I shoot with a few buddies with the S&W and a DPMS Panther and it is on par with them without a doubt as far as accuracy and dependability go.
Now that being said, this year I will shoot 3, maybe 5 Tac matches with it, plus some training sessions and general plinking.
If I took Tac rifle more seriously, I would buy a higher end gun without a doubt, but if you shoot along the same lines as myself, there is not a thing wrong with a Norc, does the job for me every time.
As an entry level AR, I think the Norc is on par with any of the lower end American made AR's, and I honestly don't understand how so many people rate it as a bargain basement pos.
I think if more people ran one for a few days before forming their opinion they might just rate it a little higher
I have to agree, I've had the same experience with my DA556, although I probably haven't run mine as hard as you. I shoot with a few buddies with the S&W and a DPMS Panther and it is on par with them without a doubt as far as accuracy and dependability go.
Now that being said, this year I will shoot 3, maybe 5 Tac matches with it, plus some training sessions and general plinking.
If I took Tac rifle more seriously, I would buy a higher end gun without a doubt, but if you shoot along the same lines as myself, there is not a thing wrong with a Norc, does the job for me every time.
As an entry level AR, I think the Norc is on par with any of the lower end American made AR's, and I honestly don't understand how so many people rate it as a bargain basement pos.
I think if more people ran one for a few days before forming their opinion they might just rate it a little higher
Try adding aftermarket parts like drop in handguards or changing the receiver extension. Lots of stories about cutting handguards to fit or unknown thread pitch on the receiver extension tower.
I have, on both mine and the wife's, never had an issue with anything other than one particular Fab Defence buttstock that would not fit on my commercial tube, but works on the wife's no problem. I have heard the stories about parts not fitting and I'm sure it happens, but I can only go on my personal experience. As far as accuracy and dependability go,not a thing wrong with it, and to me that is more important than whether a handguard fits without playing with it
The Norinco M4 rifles are interesting. They look mediocre, they have questionable specs at times but they also have a hammer forged barrel. I've seen and shot one with the barrel free floated and a good trigger. They shoot. They seem to be reliable. I never saw a failure with the one I was shooting (not mine though). The problem is, you can get better quality these days with North American rifles at the same price point. The cheap bargain rifle is no longer the bargain rifle.
LMT mrp rifles are a cut above. I actually prefer them over my Colt Canada IUR rifles, which I happen to really like as well.
LMT mrp rifles are a cut above. I actually prefer them over my Colt Canada IUR rifles, which I happen to really like as well.
I have, on both mine and the wife's, never had an issue with anything other than one particular Fab Defence buttstock that would not fit on my commercial tube, but works on the wife's no problem. I have heard the stories about parts not fitting and I'm sure it happens, but I can only go on my personal experience. As far as accuracy and dependability go,not a thing wrong with it, and to me that is more important than whether a handguard fits without playing with it
I think you're missing the point. Norc guns are not in spec which means their materials and craftsmanship is in question and a crap shoot at best. If yours works then good for you. Plenty of them that don't and as mentioned have a questionable production record. Something else to consider is that you cannot take your Norc to the USA, which is a problem for some.
