454 Casull OR 45-70?

[Revwildman]

Range perhaps but not power. .454 will drive a 300 grain bullet over 2000fps vs. the .30-30 pushing a 170 at 2200ish.

If I had to choose between a .45-70 and a .454 in similar guns I would take the .45-70 for sure. It will do anything the Casull can and more at lower pressure.

Thanks B
You guys have confirmed my thinking ... Truly a step up from the dirty 30 would be the 45-70. I do reload ... So that's a bonus with too.
Now it's just a matter of which lever gun ...
Thanks all!

 

[L42A1]

Keep it simple. 45-70.

 

[MiniMe]

I don't hunt, but 30-30 vs 454 is a bit off. Different purposes for each.
The ballistics are very different.
454 might have more energy, but you will have more bullet drop.

See what kind of conditions you plan to hunt first, distance, then you pick a suitable caliber.

 

[broadhead67]

Range perhaps but not power. .454 will drive a 300 grain bullet over 2000fps vs. the .30-30 pushing a 170 at 2200ish.

If I had to choose between a .45-70 and a .454 in similar guns I would take the .45-70 for sure. It will do anything the Casull can and more at lower pressure.

Wide meplat definitely delivers but a 30/30 -170 gr. @ 2330 is also a hammer , I will not post the load as it’s not safe for so many of the older levers and a few of the newer.
To be truthful with a wall of rifles my go to is a first gen M. Guide Gun in 45/70 .

 

[Camp Cook]

I call my 454 Casull 20” LSI Puma M92 my 45-70 light.

My top 45 Colt loads outdo the 30-30 out to 150 yards and my 454 Casull loads out perform the 30-30 out past 200 yards.

Here is some of my data - these are not top Freedom Arms 454 Casull loads these loads were designed for my 6 shot 4.25" barreled Ruger Super Redhawk.

Ruger made the 454 Casull SRH cylinders with a super tough but slightly stretchy metal it can handle the top FA loads but with the cylinder stretching when fired it would lock my fired brass in the cylinder so my loads were worked up until the cases had slight extraction issues I then backed off my load 1/2 gr.

20” LSI Puma M92 454 Casull Data/Velocities...

240gr XTP-Mag 38grs H110 1) 2258 2) 2327 3) 2316

300gr XTP-Mag 30grs H110 1) 1858 2) 1821

300gr Speer Gold Dot 31grs H110 1) 1890 2) 1897

360gr C/P WLNGC’s 27grs Lil-gun 1) 1848 2) 1846 3) 1828

395gr C/P WLNGC’s 24grs Lil-Gun 1) 1647 2) 1642 3) 1650

Puma M92 454 Casull 20" barrel 100 yard target


Load was 240gr XTP-Mag's/Rem 7.5 primers/30grs H110/lee Factory crimp die crimp/average velocity was 2350fps


Sights were red fiber optic front and Marlin 1895GS rear

With all this said there is another option the Ruger American in 450 Bushmaster my reloads outdo the 454 Casull above with a 16.5" barrel.

I recently purchased a 16" barreled Ruger American in 450 Bushmaster installed a Leupold VX2 2-7x33mm long range reticle scope with Leupold PRW rings.

I wasn't shooting for accuracy more to check velocities but I have to say I am very happy with the grouping I was getting with the different loads and bullet weights I used Win small rifle primers.

I set up my LabRadar doppler radar unit to read ranges at muzzle - 25 yards and 50 yards I set up my target @ 60 yards .

225gr Hornady FTX with 41grs Lilgun
2453 2303 2160fps
2451 2301 2160fps
2441 2293 2151fps

I put together a reduced recoil load for my wife to shoot

225gr Hornady FTX with 34grs AA#9
2123 1984 1857fps
2029 1894 1770fps
2090 1955 1827fps

240gr XTP-Mag 40grs Lilgun
2396 2224 2064fps
2462 2283 2123fps
2373 2203 2051fps


300gr XTP-Mag 41grs AA1680 1670 1580 1504fps
1745 1649 1561fps
2295 2130 1995fps wow what happened?
1789 1689 1605fps

355gr WLNGC's 31grs Lilgun
1852 1738 1638fps
1844 1740 1648fps
1827 1723 1626fps

I still have 405gr WLNGC's and 535gr Ranger Rick WLNGC's to work up loads for this rifle/cartridge combo just need to decide on starting loads for each before I attempt it.

As to accuracy like I said I was not shooting for accuracy I had set up my LabRadar on the hood of my pickup and just rested my elbows on the hood so the muzzle was high enough to register on the LabRadar with that said I have to say I'm very happy with the accuracy I was getting the 225 - 240gr bullets went mostly into one ragged hole the 300gr due to their reduced velocity had close to the same impact as the 355gr loads which was appr 5" lower than the 225gr loads.

Coming out of the mountains I saw at 190 yards ahead of me out on a logging road landing a stump appr 1' in diameter I was shooting downhill so put the first LR reticle dot on the spot on the log I was aiming at the 225gr FTX bullet hit within 1" max of my aiming point to say I am starting to like this light weight thumper combo is an understatement.

I do have one issue that is the mags and the feeding I had maJor issues trying to feed the 240gr XTP-Mag loads they jammed the top round making it difficult to even get the mag out to clear the jam I feel these mags should have a spacer at the back of the mag that will hold the bullets further forward as well as they need a heavier spring.

 

[Gunoholic]

Range perhaps but not power. .454 will drive a 300 grain bullet over 2000fps vs. the .30-30 pushing a 170 at 2200ish.

If I had to choose between a .45-70 and a .454 in similar guns I would take the .45-70 for sure. It will do anything the Casull can and more at lower pressure.

I wish Marlin would make a levergun in 454 Casull but rear locking actions like the Marlin 1894 cannot handle the 60K+ psi chamber pressures generated by the 454 Casull cartridge whereas the Winchester (Rossi) 1892 action with the 2 locking lugs closer to the firing chamber can.
Top end +P 45-70 loads for the Marlin 1895 model are in the 40K psi range.
For leverguns the rule of thumb is the closer the lock up is to the firing chamber the stronger the action culminating in the modern Miroku made BLR which actually locks into mortises in the chamber barrel assembly.

 

[Gunoholic]

I call my 454 Casull 20” LSI Puma M92 my 45-70 light.

My top 45 Colt loads outdo the 30-30 out to 150 yards and my 454 Casull loads out perform the 30-30 out past 200 yards.

Here is some of my data - these are not top Freedom Arms 454 Casull loads these loads were designed for my 6 shot 4.25" barreled Ruger Super Redhawk.

Ruger made the 454 Casull SRH cylinders with a super tough but slightly stretchy metal it can handle the top FA loads but with the cylinder stretching when fired it would lock my fired brass in the cylinder so my loads were worked up until the cases had slight extraction issues I then backed off my load 1/2 gr.

20” LSI Puma M92 454 Casull Data/Velocities...

240gr XTP-Mag 38grs H110 1) 2258 2) 2327 3) 2316

300gr XTP-Mag 30grs H110 1) 1858 2) 1821

300gr Speer Gold Dot 31grs H110 1) 1890 2) 1897

360gr C/P WLNGC’s 27grs Lil-gun 1) 1848 2) 1846 3) 1828

395gr C/P WLNGC’s 24grs Lil-Gun 1) 1647 2) 1642 3) 1650

Puma M92 454 Casull 20" barrel 100 yard target


Load was 240gr XTP-Mag's/Rem 7.5 primers/30grs H110/lee Factory crimp die crimp/average velocity was 2350fps


Sights were red fiber optic front and Marlin 1895GS rear

With all this said there is another option the Ruger American in 450 Bushmaster my reloads outdo the 454 Casull above with a 16.5" barrel.

I recently purchased a 16" barreled Ruger American in 450 Bushmaster installed a Leupold VX2 2-7x33mm long range reticle scope with Leupold PRW rings.

I wasn't shooting for accuracy more to check velocities but I have to say I am very happy with the grouping I was getting with the different loads and bullet weights I used Win small rifle primers.

I set up my LabRadar doppler radar unit to read ranges at muzzle - 25 yards and 50 yards I set up my target @ 60 yards .

225gr Hornady FTX with 41grs Lilgun
2453 2303 2160fps
2451 2301 2160fps
2441 2293 2151fps

I put together a reduced recoil load for my wife to shoot

225gr Hornady FTX with 34grs AA#9
2123 1984 1857fps
2029 1894 1770fps
2090 1955 1827fps

240gr XTP-Mag 40grs Lilgun
2396 2224 2064fps
2462 2283 2123fps
2373 2203 2051fps


300gr XTP-Mag 41grs AA1680 1670 1580 1504fps
1745 1649 1561fps
2295 2130 1995fps wow what happened?
1789 1689 1605fps

355gr WLNGC's 31grs Lilgun
1852 1738 1638fps
1844 1740 1648fps
1827 1723 1626fps

I still have 405gr WLNGC's and 535gr Ranger Rick WLNGC's to work up loads for this rifle/cartridge combo just need to decide on starting loads for each before I attempt it.

As to accuracy like I said I was not shooting for accuracy I had set up my LabRadar on the hood of my pickup and just rested my elbows on the hood so the muzzle was high enough to register on the LabRadar with that said I have to say I'm very happy with the accuracy I was getting the 225 - 240gr bullets went mostly into one ragged hole the 300gr due to their reduced velocity had close to the same impact as the 355gr loads which was appr 5" lower than the 225gr loads.

Coming out of the mountains I saw at 190 yards ahead of me out on a logging road landing a stump appr 1' in diameter I was shooting downhill so put the first LR reticle dot on the spot on the log I was aiming at the 225gr FTX bullet hit within 1" max of my aiming point to say I am starting to like this light weight thumper combo is an understatement.

I do have one issue that is the mags and the feeding I had maJor issues trying to feed the 240gr XTP-Mag loads they jammed the top round making it difficult to even get the mag out to clear the jam I feel these mags should have a spacer at the back of the mag that will hold the bullets further forward as well as they need a heavier spring.

As long as the guns are non-restricted like the Rossi 92 & the Marlin 1895 that’s great.
But if they’re restricted like the Freedom Arms revolver or some of the Bushmaster rifles and you can’t legally take them anywhere what’s the point?
Anybody got a good recipe for paper targets or shooting clays?

 

[Revwildman]

Hi Camp Cook

That was a very informative and well explained thread - thank you. Lot's of info to consume and digest.
Essentially, you are giving the thumbs up to the 454 over the 45-70, and also saying that velocities/energy can outperform the 30-30 to 200 yards.

Have you taken game with your 454?
The loading issues you mention - I take it you were referring to the 450 Bushmaster? Or did you have loading issues with the 454?

Thanks

 

[Revwildman]

Hi MiniMe

I mostly hunt the woods of Eastern Ontario. It's brush country. Most shots are under 50 yards. I always take 2 guns to camp. The 30-30 is one, and my .270 (Savage 110) has been the other. My thoughts were to pick up a heavier bush gun, scope it, so that it can serve dual purpose on the deer camp, and the also in the Moose/bear hunts. I love my .270, but I prefer the shorter barrel and lever action etc.

Thanks

 

[Gunoholic]

Hi MiniMe

I mostly hunt the woods of Eastern Ontario. It's brush country. Most shots are under 50 yards. I always take 2 guns to camp. The 30-30 is one, and my .270 (Savage 110) has been the other. My thoughts were to pick up a heavier bush gun, scope it, so that it can serve dual purpose on the deer camp, and the also in the Moose/bear hunts. I love my .270, but I prefer the shorter barrel and lever action etc.

Thanks

I think you’re talking about a Remlin Guide Gun in 45/70.
You’re chances of getting a good one off the rack at Epps or other dealers is pretty good though you should check the gun thoroughly before laying down any cash or plastic.
My gun is a Marlin 1895GS (18 1/2” bbl) which points fast and is accurate and with the stainless I don’t have to worry about rust when camping out in inclement weather.
If they had been available I would have bought the Remlin ‘Trapper’ with the 16 1/2” bbl being offered on the Epps website though it is kinda spendy MSRP over $1200.

 

[Camp Cook]

Hi Camp Cook

That was a very informative and well explained thread - thank you. Lot's of info to consume and digest.
Essentially, you are giving the thumbs up to the 454 over the 45-70, and also saying that velocities/energy can outperform the 30-30 to 200 yards.

Have you taken game with your 454?
The loading issues you mention - I take it you were referring to the 450 Bushmaster? Or did you have loading issues with the 454?

Thanks

Reloading issues were with my Ruger Super Redhawk cylinder stretching locking the brass in the cylinder = when the FA 454 load was fired the cylinder and brass expanded the cylinder then returned to normal but the brass stayed expanded locking the empty brass in the cylinder I had no issues with the lever gun 454 Casull.

No I am not saying the 454 is better than the 45-70 why I wrote in my first sentence that I call the 454 my 45-70 light I also load bullet weights from 250gr - 550gr in my Marlin 1895GS (stainless Guide Gun) where I top out at 405gr in the 454.

I've shot a couple deer with the 20" barreled 454 and deer & black bear with the 18.5" Marlin 45-70 carried both rifles when I was prospecting for a living I have not shot anything with the 450 Bushmaster yet just put it together this spring.

I also shoot 14" and 22" barreled T/C Contender carbines in 45-70.

One other thing I can fit 4 rounds in my 45-70 mag tube but I can fit 9 rounds of 454 Casulls and/or 10 rounds 45 Colts in the Puma M92

My Marlin 1895GS

 

[Gunoholic]

I took 2 x Manitoulin WMU 43B deer with that pre safety Rossi 92 20” bbl in 454 Casull.
The 335 grain hard cast BNH:25 went right through in both cases leaving good sized exit holes.
Sold the gun because I got a real lucrative offer for it and I had several rifles that could do the same job at the time.
The pre Br#####h Amadeo Rossi M92s in 454 Casull with no pigtail safety on the receiver or hammer lock are scarce as chickens teeth.
The job I did on the Brazilian jungle wood stocks with tru-oil looked pretty good.

 

[SHELL SHUCKER]

I took 2 x Manitoulin WMU 43B deer with that pre safety Rossi 92 20” bbl in 454 Casull.
The 335 grain hard cast BNH:25 went right through in both cases leaving good sized exit holes.
Sold the gun because I got a real lucrative offer for it and I had several rifles that could do the same job at the time.
The pre Br#####h Amadeo Rossi M92s in 454 Casull with no pigtail safety on the receiver or hammer lock are scarce as chickens teeth.
The job I did on the Brazilian jungle wood stocks with tru-oil looked pretty good.

I agree. My one was pre-Braz as well. Fookin' should've kept 'er.
View attachment 192750

 

[Gunoholic]

I agree. My one was pre-Braz as well. Fookin' should've kept 'er.
View attachment 192750

Yup, I should have.
I could load it using the receiver loading gate like a Winchester or through the slot in the mag tube like a Henry.
The way it went down was a friend tried it at the range, fell in love with it and offered me $1000 CDN on the barrelhead for the gun and 50 rnds of handloaded ammo I had with me.
I bought it for $350 as a winter project from a guy who didn’t take care of it too good and spent a couple of days fixing it up and finishing the stock.
$1000 in a pile is a lot of dough.

 

[B]

Wide meplat definitely delivers but a 30/30 -170 gr. @ 2330 is also a hammer , I will not post the load as it’s not safe for so many of the older levers and a few of the newer.
To be truthful with a wall of rifles my go to is a first gen M. Guide Gun in 45/70 .

No one is calling the .30-30 a slouch but the .454 was designed to be a hot-rod cartridge. It performs excellently for its size especially from a rifle.

 

[Gunoholic]

No one is calling the .30-30 a slouch but the .454 was designed to be a hot-rod cartridge. It performs excellently for its size especially from a rifle.

The 454C is a suped up 45LC and the 460WM is in turn a suped up 454C.

 

[Boomer]

To me the question is easily answered; if you're after a rifle have it chambered for a rifle cartridge, if you're after a handgun, have it chambered for a pistol cartridge. The .454 in a rifle is akin to a .45/70 BFR, as neither appears to fill a useful niche. Powder capacity is the key to rifle performance; the .45/70 has more, so its the better choice.

 

[hoytcanon]

.45/70

 

[Revwildman]

OK Gotcha Camp Cook - sorry about the confusion there. You've got some nice looking rifles there. It seems like Rossi is the only Rifle company chambering in the 454. Looks like finding a used one will be near impossible ... and the new safety addition looks out of place indeed.

This has been a good discussion!

Thanks

 

[MiG25]

Get the rifle you want, the cartridge is secondary.