.303 "Epps" history
- Thread starter mbogo3
- Start date
Years ago this topic came up frequently. The 303 Epps has a capacity less than the 7.62X54R that it resembles.
Unless the guy really wants a "303 Epps" and the custom dies and fireforming, IMO he'd be better off rechambering with a common 300 Win Mag reamer and creating a "303 Win Mag".
It used to be common too that folks would rechamber a "P17" to 300 Win Mag and employ a P14 bolt in it - such as I did.
Given how inexpensive new rifles now are, the ultimate cost of sporterizing such as suggested makes no economic sense, it's just a "because I wanted to" affair.
All that aside, in a P14, the 303 Brit can be loaded to 308 Win MV's and a "303 Epps" would add not much more than 100 fps to that.
Unless the guy really wants a "303 Epps" and the custom dies and fireforming, IMO he'd be better off rechambering with a common 300 Win Mag reamer and creating a "303 Win Mag".
It used to be common too that folks would rechamber a "P17" to 300 Win Mag and employ a P14 bolt in it - such as I did.
Given how inexpensive new rifles now are, the ultimate cost of sporterizing such as suggested makes no economic sense, it's just a "because I wanted to" affair.
All that aside, in a P14, the 303 Brit can be loaded to 308 Win MV's and a "303 Epps" would add not much more than 100 fps to that.
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This is a bit off topic but I met Elwood Epps in Whitehorse back in the early seventies. He was up there on vacation, visiting with people he had met while working there previously.
I was using a modified P17 still chambered in 30-06 on a Moose/Caribou/Bear hunt. I went into a small, not very well stocked hardware store to pick up some ammunition and he was in the store.
We got chatting and he regaled me with all sorts of stories about mining machinery, lathes/milling machines etc. He was also a good friend of Alan Lever.
He loved the Lee Enfield actions. He like working on them and playing with them. In the Yukon, at that time Enfields/Lee Enfields and Mausers were relatively cheap and plentiful. They came in all sorts of variations/conditions and being a decent machinist, Elwood made up or modified reamers to get as much out of these actions as he could without altering the receivers other than cosmetically. Yes he sold some of his work, it just happened that the rifle I was using at the time was one of his "projects."
A gentleman all the way until he got POed, which I witnessed once. Even then, nothing violent other than some very expressive comments as to genetics.
He really didn't see anything wrong with the standard 303 Brit or 30-06 cartridge. He started playing with improving the cartridges for fun and giggles and out of curiosity.
The 303 EPPs was one of the outcomes of one of his "projects." His aim was to get as much energy from 220 grain bullets as possible without ruining the rifle. Yes, he did catastrophically ruin a few.
He also hated the bedding system on Lee Enfields. Way to complicated in his opinion and prone to accuracy issues. His view was from that of sporterising of course.
Elwood liked heavy bullets on anything from Deer on up in size. He also played with many different light bullet weights and loads. He felt the main drawback with most of the barrels available CHEAP were their to fast twist rates.
I didn't see him after that but we did correspond on occasion and speak on the phone. We were both deaf so that could be difficult.
I still have one of his rifles. It's built on a P17 action with the mag well hump reduced and chambered in 7x57. This was one of his CHEAP "project" rifles. Shoots very well but it's heavy.
He did something unique but not unheard of when he put the 7x57 barrel on it.
The barrel was a take off from a Mauser and the tenon was to small to fit into the Enfield receiver. So he pulled the barrel off the Enfield, Cut off the chamber portion and used the 7mm barrel as a threaded insert, after boring and threading the tenons to fit. It's pretty obvious when you look at it but it isn't unpleasing to the eye. Roughly finished but acceptable as a hunting rifle as well a accurate.
He did a lot of things HIS way, instead of by the book. He worked with what he had on hand. Great machinist as well.
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I was using a modified P17 still chambered in 30-06 on a Moose/Caribou/Bear hunt. I went into a small, not very well stocked hardware store to pick up some ammunition and he was in the store.
We got chatting and he regaled me with all sorts of stories about mining machinery, lathes/milling machines etc. He was also a good friend of Alan Lever.
He loved the Lee Enfield actions. He like working on them and playing with them. In the Yukon, at that time Enfields/Lee Enfields and Mausers were relatively cheap and plentiful. They came in all sorts of variations/conditions and being a decent machinist, Elwood made up or modified reamers to get as much out of these actions as he could without altering the receivers other than cosmetically. Yes he sold some of his work, it just happened that the rifle I was using at the time was one of his "projects."
A gentleman all the way until he got POed, which I witnessed once. Even then, nothing violent other than some very expressive comments as to genetics.
He really didn't see anything wrong with the standard 303 Brit or 30-06 cartridge. He started playing with improving the cartridges for fun and giggles and out of curiosity.
The 303 EPPs was one of the outcomes of one of his "projects." His aim was to get as much energy from 220 grain bullets as possible without ruining the rifle. Yes, he did catastrophically ruin a few.
He also hated the bedding system on Lee Enfields. Way to complicated in his opinion and prone to accuracy issues. His view was from that of sporterising of course.
Elwood liked heavy bullets on anything from Deer on up in size. He also played with many different light bullet weights and loads. He felt the main drawback with most of the barrels available CHEAP were their to fast twist rates.
I didn't see him after that but we did correspond on occasion and speak on the phone. We were both deaf so that could be difficult.
I still have one of his rifles. It's built on a P17 action with the mag well hump reduced and chambered in 7x57. This was one of his CHEAP "project" rifles. Shoots very well but it's heavy.
He did something unique but not unheard of when he put the 7x57 barrel on it.
The barrel was a take off from a Mauser and the tenon was to small to fit into the Enfield receiver. So he pulled the barrel off the Enfield, Cut off the chamber portion and used the 7mm barrel as a threaded insert, after boring and threading the tenons to fit. It's pretty obvious when you look at it but it isn't unpleasing to the eye. Roughly finished but acceptable as a hunting rifle as well a accurate.
He did a lot of things HIS way, instead of by the book. He worked with what he had on hand. Great machinist as well.
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He endorsed the use of round nosed bullets with lots of exposed lead.
Always liked his SMLEs set up in a one piece stock. Smooth, graceful rifles.
I first met him in his Clinton ON shop in the '60s. Last time I visited him was in Washago. His health was failing, he was towing around an oxygen tank.
Always liked his SMLEs set up in a one piece stock. Smooth, graceful rifles.
I first met him in his Clinton ON shop in the '60s. Last time I visited him was in Washago. His health was failing, he was towing around an oxygen tank.
As a young airman from the west undergoing training at RCAF Stn Clinton Ont, Ellwood's shop was a Mecca. He and his wife were very supportive to us, even to renting guns to us by the day to hunt woodchucks and snapping turtles. Great people.
Although a little rough.......
Depends on how interested he was at the time. Also depends on which part of his career you're speaking of. Towards the end his health issues had a lot to do with the quality of his work. There are a lot of his fine rifles in the US still being used today as well as being admired for the workmanship.
The main reason I rated him as a great machinist is that he had imagination and would do things others couldn't/wouldn't attempt. He did a lot of his own patterning and design, which many machinists don't. Not that they can't, they just don't.
He could work with what he had in his bins and adapt them well enough to make them come together and work well. That's not something a lot of people can or are willing to attempt.
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My 303 Epps cartridges hold roughly 1.5 grains less powder than the 30/06 cases I compared it to. I load 150's to just over 3000 fps and 165s about 2870fps. The standard 303 can indeed be loaded pretty hot in a strong actioned rifle and I had no trouble driving 168's to 2750 fps. In the end, I chambered my 303 Epps because I didn't want to have a bunch of hot-loaded 303 cartridges which would fit into a Lee Enfield (I have some). This is just the sort of mistake I could see myself making.
- Location
- campbell river bc
Hi, just wondering when you were stationed in Clinton? I was there in 1957. Electronics school.
303EppsFan
CGN Regular
- Location
- Almonte,Ontario
I have a .303 Epps built on a P14 action in the Epps shop. Had a nice chat with Elwood at the time about some dies as the ones I ordered with the rifle hadn't arrived.
As I recall he was running Gramps Antique Cartridges? then and his nephew was doing the smithing.
The Epps cartridge having a steeper shoulder will give better case life than the standard .303 supposedly.
It made up into a very nice sporter but the cost of the smith work these days would be discouraging.
nowarningshot
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
I have a P17 rebarreled by him to 338wm. One of my never sell items. Accurate, with a rolling boom and muzzle rise more attuned to a H&H, rather than the sharp, hard, snap of a 338.
A truly fine man. Several decades ago I MAILED him a letter about doing some chamber work. This was well before computers so it really was mailed. He returned a letter saying he was just going on vacation but that I should phone him on a particular date which I did. He must have spent an hour on the phone with me answering all sorts of questions and in no hurry to finish talking. Great man.
