SXS Upland Gun Advice

AR15meister

AR15meister

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Gents,

I want to buy a really nice upland gun (or two).

under $10,000.00CAD.


I am open to pre owned and actually leaning towards vintage British. I am also open to more modern and have looked at 80's H&H and also CSMC guns.

I am happy to import from USA for the right piece and I am willing to use auction site. I can also wait until winter and I will be at the SCI show and can check out some of the dealers there.

I would like a 20 gauge but my shooting club has lots of 20 gauge club guns, Beretta 686, that are free for me to use when there if I want. I don't like shooting over under but our continental tower shoots require a 20 gauge break action so I shot a club O/U 20ga last year for the shoot. My father shoots a Rizzini 20 gauge O/U I bought him for Christmas from Prophet River- he prefers over under and I can use his when he isn't with me but he is often with me on the shoots as we like hunting birds together. So I would love a 20 but they are sooooooo much more expensive when you get into the older guns.

I already have a vintage 12 gauge 'guild gun' from Italy that I love but it is not a fine piece. I just like it and have shot it for the last few years and I shot it really well. I don't even know what chokes are in it but I know the gun like an old friend. I currently use it for my field pheasant and chukar hunting.

My one idea is that I have a 12 gauge and I should buy a 28 gauge. Get the 20 gauge later in life.

I am sort of lost- too many options and opinions- and thought this was a good place to hear some opinions from some die hards.

So my requirements-

Side by Side
can handle modern hunting loads
pretty
interesting
British or American
2 triggers
Under 10k CAD


I am going to be shooting the gun at private upland clubs in Ontario. It isn't going to be packed into duck boats but I wont baby it. I will use it as it was meant to be used while showing it respect, if that makes sense.

As always, opinions are appreciated and thank you to this site for being a great source of knowledge.
 
What your asking is a pretty broad question. There's many choices out there and guns are a personal thing, I might like something that you detest or visa versa.
You haven't mentioned Spanish guns and in my opinion many of them are as good as the British guns that they have copied for the most part. Prophet River has new AYA No2's for around 9k, they're pretty nice if that sort of thing turns your crank.

https://store.prophetriver.com/aya/
 
I am not interested in Spanish guns.

Sort of like people who wouldn't be caught dead driving a Nissan GTR. GTR is a great and fast car- just not my thing. I like Italian cars and American cars.

Blondes or Brunettes. Etc.
 
I know it is a broad question- and I honestly want opinions. Maybe one of you guys has an idea I never thought of and it might help me. Or I hate everything you guys say and stick with what I already had in mind.

Its a small world of people who are into this stuff as much as "we" are!
 
I can understand where you are, there are so many fine doubles available which meet your broad requirements that the more you look the more confusing it gets. You can't buy them all and you aren't trying to start a collection, you want that one special gun for you. It sounds like you get around a fair amount so you should get a chance over a few months to handle and examine most new Italian, German and American side by sides that meet your general requirements, this will give you a good general feeling of what the different makers produce and what their various models offer and you have likely already done some of this. Unfortunately new English guns are now beyond your proposed budget, Japanese makers don't offer what you are looking for, Turkish guns aren't yet at the standard you are looking for and you aren't interested in the finer Spanish guns. Most makers of this type of gun in this price range, particularly the Italian makers, will customize their product to a greater or lesser degree by offering single or double triggers, different barrel lengths, fixed chokes if desired, upgraded wood, custom hand engraving, sometimes special stock dimensions. Think FAIR, Fausti, Rizzini and many smaller makers. Also take a good look at the Beretta 486, they are a huge leap ahead of their predecessors. These features are not often promoted, you need to work with a knowledgeable importer or distributor but you can get a very personal semi custom gun. There is very little chance that you will find that special gun, new or used, that screams "take me home, I'm yours" in Canada, the pool is just too small, a custom order may be your only practical option.
A good used British gun ( or possibly an older high quality Belgian, American or German) opens a very different door. Now you are talking hand made quality with a very real possibilty to appreciate in value but these guns are very scarce and sought after and you pay for that. Again, the pool of available guns in Canada like this is tiny and they rarely come up for sale, although there was a very nice cased 20 gauge Churchill Regal advertised on Gunnutz a year or two ago for around $10,000. A sister gun in the same excellent condition was advertised at the same time in Texas at $10,000 US, you do the math. They both sold by the way. Buying in the US gives you more guns to choose from but overall you get less value because by the time the gun is in your hands in Canada the total cost in Canadian dollars will be about 55% more than the selling price in US dollars.
Another option that you may not have considered would be to find a used basic gun of good make that meets your general requirement and have a custom made to your specs by somebody like Chris Dawe and the team of specialists that he works with.
 
Ashcroft said:
I can understand where you are, there are so many fine doubles available which meet your broad requirements that the more you look the more confusing it gets. You can't buy them all and you aren't trying to start a collection, you want that one special gun for you. It sounds like you get around a fair amount so you should get a chance over a few months to handle and examine most new Italian, German and American side by sides that meet your general requirements, this will give you a good general feeling of what the different makers produce and what their various models offer and you have likely already done some of this. Unfortunately new English guns are now beyond your proposed budget, Japanese makers don't offer what you are looking for, Turkish guns aren't yet at the standard you are looking for and you aren't interested in the finer Spanish guns. Most makers of this type of gun in this price range, particularly the Italian makers, will customize their product to a greater or lesser degree by offering single or double triggers, different barrel lengths, fixed chokes if desired, upgraded wood, custom hand engraving, sometimes special stock dimensions. Think FAIR, Fausti, Rizzini and many smaller makers. Also take a good look at the Beretta 486, they are a huge leap ahead of their predecessors. These features are not often promoted, you need to work with a knowledgeable importer or distributor but you can get a very personal semi custom gun. There is very little chance that you will find that special gun, new or used, that screams "take me home, I'm yours" in Canada, the pool is just too small, a custom order may be your only practical option.
A good used British gun ( or possibly an older high quality Belgian, American or German) opens a very different door. Now you are talking hand made quality with a very real possibilty to appreciate in value but these guns are very scarce and sought after and you pay for that. Again, the pool of available guns in Canada like this is tiny and they rarely come up for sale, although there was a very nice cased 20 gauge Churchill Regal advertised on Gunnutz a year or two ago for around $10,000. A sister gun in the same excellent condition was advertised at the same time in Texas at $10,000 US, you do the math. They both sold by the way. Buying in the US gives you more guns to choose from but overall you get less value because by the time the gun is in your hands in Canada the total cost in Canadian dollars will be about 55% more than the selling price in US dollars.
Another option that you may not have considered would be to find a used basic gun of good make that meets your general requirement and have a custom made to your specs by somebody like Chris Dawe and the team of specialists that he works with.
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thank you for this. that's my sentiment.

the more you look the more confused you get!
 
I was just looking at an interesting Lindner Daly 12 gauge that was coming in under 6 pounds. IMHO, a perfect upland gun, made as well as a gun can be made. Asking was $8500 USD, could probably be had for under $7000. Spend $2-3K to have the gun properly refurbished and fitted by someone who knows what they are doing (a couple come to mind) and for under $10K you have as finely a made upland gun as has even been made.

BTW, I was handling and shooting a light Purdey 12 bore (6 pounds 3 oz IIRC) for a couple months this spring and would take the Daly over the Purdey in a heartbeat for 1/3 of the money. I'd take the Daly at even money (if there was no opportunity to profit from getting the Purdey at a discount to market value).

And I think Ashcroft's suggestion of developing a custom gun with Chris is a very good idea.

One thing you need to decide given where you shooting (and I'm casting no aspersions....I shoot at some of the places you are likely referring to) is this. Is part of the motivation bragging rights or is it really all about getting the most suitable gun for how you want to use it. Brand names can be important to some people. I shoot regularly at Griffith and know people there who own Purdey's, H & H etc but don't really understand what they have. But they like to say they have a Holland.
 
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canvasback said:
I was just looking at an interesting Lindner Daly 12 gauge that was coming in under 6 pounds. IMHO, a perfect upland gun, made as well as a gun can be made. Asking was $8500 USD, could probably be had for under $7000. Spend $2-3K to have the gun properly refurbished and fitted by someone who knows what they are doing (a couple come to mind) and for under $10K you have as finely a made upland gun as has even been made.

BTW, I was handling and shooting a light Purdey 12 bore (6 pounds 3 oz IIRC) for a couple months this spring and would take the Daly over the Purdey in a heartbeat for 1/3 of the money. I'd take the Daly at even money (if there was no opportunity to profit from getting the Purdey at a discount to market value).

And I think Ashcroft's suggestion of developing a custom gun with Chris is a very good idea.

One thing you need to decide given where you shooting (and I'm casting no aspersions....I shoot at some of the places you are likely referring to) is this. Is part of the motivation bragging rights or is it really all about getting the most suitable gun for how you want to use it. Brand names can be important to some people. I shoot regularly at Griffith and know people there who own Purdey's, H & H etc but don't really understand what they have. But they like to say they have a Holland.
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Brand name is important to me mainly for retaining value. I don't care about bragging rights. As you know, there is always someone with the bigger wallet, faster car, etc. I rarely sell stuff but I have always done well buying from famous brand names as far as retaining value. That being said, this is a gun for me. But would I get pleasure from owning a Holland and Holland or a Boss or a Purdey...in my case, yes for sure I would. The romantic idea of a classic british double carried in the field on a gorgeous fall day with a couple good dogs and wearing traditional attire is part of the pageantry that I like about upland hunting. When I hunt the big nasty mountains like in BC, Kyrgystan or Azerbaijian (just got back last week from Dagestan Tur hunt in Azerbaijan- wild trip) I use the absolute best equipment regardless of looks and any preconceived notions of what is "cool" or "good". Just whatever keeps me warm, dry and alive and of course a gun that is 10000 percent reliable and proven and known. Upland hunting isn't life or death...you want to kill birds cleanly, no doubt, but outside of that you can always walk back to the lodge if you are cold, or go grab a club gun if your gun breaks....etc.

As for brand name/value my opinion is simply that brand names sell quickly in any hobby....and its nice to have stuff that can sell more quickly if you ever needed to, or your kids needed to....or grandkids. That being said, I have shot a 350 dollar side by side next to guys with 150k purdeys lots of times at our club and never given a hoot. And neither did they. So for me, the brand name isn't too important if I like the piece.

I have never shot at Griffith. Been invited several times but it has never worked out. I have heard it is a great spot. The distance kills a membership there for me. I am a Toronto guy and 3 kids under 5. I am lucky to get out at all!
 
Ill chime in ,for your budget a barrelled action in the white can be purchased and built to your specs ... fair warning ,as of today a custom upgrade is a year wait
 
cjdawe said:
Ill chime in ,for your budget a barrelled action in the white can be purchased and built to your specs ... fair warning ,as of today a custom upgrade is a year wait
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what is a barrelled action in the white?

Sorry I am not familiar with the terminology
 
Could I get a custom 20 gauge with gorgeous wood and a Naked Lady engraved on the case hardened receiver by a reliable smith for under10 grand?

If so, who would I call?

I saw a custom with a naked lady in shooting sportsman one time; it was so awesome.
 
A working shotgun with no stock, and no metal finishes. No blueing or CCH. You choose the wood, the finishes, the engraving etc. Completely custom.

Just saw your next post.

Pm C J Dawe.

Chris has a network of associates and together they can do about anything you want. I have several guns with Chris now.

Search the thread “ show us your SxS” starting at the end and going back for some examples of his/their work.
 
canvasback said:
A working shotgun with no stock, and no metal finishes. No blueing or CCH. You choose the wood, the finishes, the engraving etc. Completely custom.

Just saw your next post.

Pm C J Dawe.

Chris has a network of associates and together they can do about anything you want. I have several guns with Chris now.
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sounds cool but also sounds like it would take a year or two. might be worth it though to just start a project like that and then buy something to tide over until it is done in another gauge.

see these are the ideas I was looking for!

Who would be a reasonable cost but highly skilled smith to produce such a shotgun?
 
Not sure if this is something you would be interested in. But Al Flahertys over in Toronto usually has some Beretta 486 Parallelo’s in stock. I know there not a H&H but there a well made modern double that will handle any modern ammo. Plus you get choke tubes for changing shooting conditions. Also well within your budget.
 
AR15meister said:
sounds cool but also sounds like it would take a year or two. might be worth it though to just start a project like that and then buy something to tide over until it is done in another gauge.

see these are the ideas I was looking for!

Who would be a reasonable cost but highly skilled smith to produce such a shotgun?
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Like I said, PM Chris Dawe.

And looking for the right gun (not custom) could easily take a year if you confine your search to Canada.

I have a few guns in my safe that took me the better part of five years of active searching to find. Canada is a very small market with very limited inventory at the higher end of the SxS market.
 
You could get a very nice 2nd hand British gun for that money. Maybe not a Purdey or H&H, but there were literally dozens of lesser known makers that made very good quality box or side-lock guns. You just have to be patient and particular. 12ga. is by far the most common. Try going to the Westley Richards, or Champlins website. Epps or Accuracy plus will occasionally have some good used guns in stock. Know what fits you and try to get one as close as possible to fitting so you're not wasting money on alterations.

P.S. Your money will go a lot further if you focus on box locks.
 
Additional useful information regarding older British doubles.......Most of them are chambered for the long standard 2 1/2" ammunition. The correct ammo is availabe through any Kent Ammunition dealer and from a few retailers like Prophet River and for hunting purposes this is fine but this might not be convenient for your range trips where much more ammo is usually used. There are a few guns around with original 2 3/4" chambers but they are scarce and carry a premium. Avoid 2 1/2" guns that have been opened to 2 3/4" by unknown persons and not reproofed, it negatively affects the value of the better guns, will contribute to rapid loosening of the gun and may even compromise the safety.
 
I think you are ruling out a lot of good upland guns by saying "not Spanish". By this I mean, quality Spanish, not humdrum just OK guns. Think AyA higher grades, Ugartechea or Grulla.
The kind of quality that you are looking for comes at a much higher price from Italy.
As had been said, the pool of high grade, side by side 28 gauge guns, or even 20 guage is quite limited in Canada. And you pay a high premium to shop in the US.
British guns add their own set of problems. There are great British guns to be had, but quality guns are made for their owner and do not necessarily fit the secondary buyer. Secondly, many British guns are problem children, having been dinked with, or barrels lapped out of proof, and out of safe condition. You have to know what you are doing to get into British guns, or have dependable professional advice. Professional advice usually comes at a cost.
I would read the Internet chatter about CSMC guns very carefully. My reading is that getting a good gun is a crap shoot. Too many people have reported problems to ignore this issue.
There are very few American guns that can hold a candle to better British, Italian or Spanish guns. My opinion, of course. Truly high quality American guns that have stood the test of time are expensive.
Upgraded guns are a special field, all their own. You have to be in love with the idea, and be prepared to accept that you will never get your money out of a high quality upgrade if you decide to sell.
None of this is meant to discourage you. You need to go in to the world of high grade guns with both eyes open.
 
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