SXS Upland Gun Advice

I would start a dream of a lifetime gun project, sure. Not sure who you can find to fit you for that but make sure it fits. In the meantime would shoot the 12 gauge that shoots where you look with 3/4 ounce loads and say "who needs a 20?" Take the $10G and your old man on a New Zealand or BC or Alberta guided hunt. What about Argentina?
 
There is a thread that is stickied at the top of this forum (Hunting and Sporting Shotgun) "Let's see some pics of your SxS's and O/U's". You may get some inspiration flipping through it. Worst case scenario, you will see sone gorgeous SxS's.
 
FLHTCUI said:
Browning SXS or the Winchester Model 21 .
Both are available in the EE right now.
Rob
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Nice guns but not in the same league he is looking for. Those guns are big & beefy and were designed for heavy loads with the American hunter in mind who spent much of his bird hunting in duck blinds where a big heavy gun is not only needed but not being carried all day.


VictoryXC said:
There is a thread that is stickied at the top of this forum (Hunting and Sporting Shotgun) "Let's see some pics of your SxS's and O/U's". You may get some inspiration flipping through it. Worst case scenario, you will see sone gorgeous SxS's.
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You got that right! I have to wipe drool off my screen especially looking at the work done by Dawe and Lemieux!!
 
All that is said above is good information. One thing I would add, and it is mentioned briefly above, is that the gun should fit you. A $10k H&H or other gun that doesn't fit you is mostly useless unless you have it restocked to your specs (which will cost quite a lot). I shoot trap competitively and proper gun fit is critical for the best scores. This applies to hunting, too. My favourite hunting shotgun is a British 12 gauge Army & Navy SxS 7-pin sidelock with 30" barrels made some time around 1910. I picked it up at the Lethbridge gun show several years ago, and the first time I put it to my shoulder I knew I would buy it. It fit perfectly. I couldn't get any better fit on a hunting gun if I had it custom made. And here is the problem with buying older high-end guns; many of them were custom ordered to the buyer's measurements, and most people in the past (i.e. late 19th / early 20th century) were somewhat smaller than today. I'm 6'2", 240lb., and not fat, so finding a British SxS that fit me was like finding the needle in the (very large) haystack.
I would suggest that you go to gun shows and higher-end gun stores (there are some in north eastern USA that specialize in fine guns) and look at what is available. Some of the shops have qualified gun fitters and can suggest guns that might fit your requirements (both brand and fit). Finding a gun that fits might save you thousands in modifications / restocking.
Good luck on your search!
 
Tharjoe said:
All that is said above is good information. One thing I would add, and it is mentioned briefly above, is that the gun should fit you. A $10k H&H or other gun that doesn't fit you is mostly useless unless you have it restocked to your specs (which will cost quite a lot). I shoot trap competitively and proper gun fit is critical for the best scores. This applies to hunting, too. My favourite hunting shotgun is a British 12 gauge Army & Navy SxS 7-pin sidelock with 30" barrels made some time around 1910. I picked it up at the Lethbridge gun show several years ago, and the first time I put it to my shoulder I knew I would buy it. It fit perfectly. I couldn't get any better fit on a hunting gun if I had it custom made. And here is the problem with buying older high-end guns; many of them were custom ordered to the buyer's measurements, and most people in the past (i.e. late 19th / early 20th century) were somewhat smaller than today. I'm 6'2", 240lb., and not fat, so finding a British SxS that fit me was like finding the needle in the (very large) haystack.
I would suggest that you go to gun shows and higher-end gun stores (there are some in north eastern USA that specialize in fine guns) and look at what is available. Some of the shops have qualified gun fitters and can suggest guns that might fit your requirements (both brand and fit). Finding a gun that fits might save you thousands in modifications / restocking.
Good luck on your search!
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Fit is the primary reason that I am shooting two Grulls SxS guns. The standard Grulla stock dimensions just seem to fit me perfectly, and I prefer a lightweight gun , rather than a heavy Model 21 or a BSS. I have shouldered many SxS shotguns, and very few fit me. I was also fortunate enough to come across great deals on used guns in pretty much like new condition.
 
Tharjoe said:
......My favourite hunting shotgun is a British 12 gauge Army & Navy SxS 7-pin sidelock with 30" barrels made some time around 1910. I picked it up at the Lethbridge gun show several years ago, and the first time I put it to my shoulder I knew I would buy it. It fit perfectly. I couldn't get any better fit on a hunting gun if I had it custom made. And here is the problem with buying older high-end guns; many of them were custom ordered to the buyer's measurements, and most people in the past (i.e. late 19th / early 20th century) were somewhat smaller than today. I'm 6'2", 240lb., and not fat, so finding a British SxS that fit me was like finding the needle in the (very large) haystack.

Good luck on your search!
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All good advice. I'd just make the observation that at 6' 2" and 240 pounds, you are a bit of an outlier, size wise. For many of us (I'm 5"11 and 175) finding a decent fit in a vintage shotgun is much easier than you allude to.

I'd also make the observation (and it's just my opinion) that there is a huge difference between the importance of fit in trap shooting and in hunting. Competitive trap shooting is a very structured circumstance, something upland hunting is not, unless perhaps you are shooting driven pheasant in England on a regular basis. I hunt various species of grouse (sharptails and ruffs) in temps that range from higher than 25 degrees to lower than minus 10. Obviously I'm going to be dressed differently in those varying conditions. And so, the ideal LOP when I'm in Nebraska and it's 28 degrees, as it was last year, is not the same as the ideal LOP when I'm hunting ruffed grouse later in the year in northern Ontario.

Having one gun that has the "perfect" fit is impossible for hunting because of the ever varied conditions.

BTW, that A & N sounds like a pretty nice gun.
 
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high end used Spanish guns are great value and essentially the same as British guns. Lots for sale in the US and importation is nothing to be afraid of. I would determine my dimensions and go shopping online.
 
canvasback said:
All good advice. I'd just make the observation that at 6' 2" and 240 pounds, you are a bit of an outlier, size wise. For many of us (I'm 5"11 and 175) finding a decent fit in a vintage shotgun is much easier than you allude to.

I'd also make the observation (and it's just my opinion) that there is a huge difference between the importance of fit in trap shooting and in hunting. Competitive trap shooting is a very structured circumstance, something upland hunting is not, unless perhaps you are shooting driven pheasant in England on a regular basis. I hunt various species of grouse (sharptails and ruffs) in temps that range from higher than 25 degrees to lower than minus 10. Obviously I'm going to be dressed differently in those varying conditions. And so, the ideal LOP when I'm in Nebraska and it's 28 degrees, as it was last year, is not the same as the ideal LOP when I'm hunting ruffed grouse later in the year in northern Ontario.

Having one gun that has the "perfect" fit is impossible for hunting because of the ever varied conditions.

BTW, that A & N sounds like a pretty nice gun.
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Truthfully, I find fit even more important on a hunting gun, or a sporting clays gun, where the gun is not premounted, and must be shouldered fairly quickly. Yes the LOP may change slightly with additional clothing but the drop at comb , which I find the most important, remains fairly constant.
 
stubblejumper said:
Yes the LOP may change slightly with additional clothing but the drop at comb , which I find the most important, remains fairly constant.
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I would agree that with vintage guns, the most important element of fit that needs to be close is DOC.

i don't agree fit is more important on a hunting gun than on a trap gun, which is what I was responding to. Fit is one of the few variables in trap and at the competitive level, one more clay out of 100 can be critical. Much like golf, the whole thing is about repeatability. Consistency. My experience is hunting is different. Few shots have the same elements....they can be similar.....but temps are different, footing is different, trajectory of the bird is different. Every shot is slightly, or greatly different. And we aren't in a competition against others where the goal is to shoot 100 birds straight. So fit should be close, but the requirement of exactness of fit is not critical.

I mentioned shooting driven game in England in my earlier post because it was that type of shooting that gave rise to the idea of the importance of fit in a hunting game gun. And similar to trap, when you are standing at a peg, the birds being driven overhead present a remarkable consistency of shot. Our North American style of hunting, what the Brits refer to as "walk-up" is very different.
 
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Spanish guns are perplexing and can be heartbreakers, I understand the OP shying away from them. Yes, the better grades, particularly from the better makers are excellent guns, certainly the equal of most vintage English guns by most makers and can hold their head up in any company. The problem here is that most used Spanish guns out there aren't of this quality and have a very poor reputation which has tainted all Spanish guns. And with the large number of mostly unfamiliar makers each with numerous unidentified models of varying quality it becomes very difficult to accurately assess an individual gun for original quality. The result of this is very poor resale on Spanish guns, they do not hold their value as well as their competitors and are harder to sell as the O P
demonstrates, making expensive ones a poor investment. The flip side of this is that there are some excellent bargains on some outstanding guns out there for those who know how to find them. I believe that you can buy a very high grade near new Spanish double for a fraction of the price of the equivalent gun new, getting into a gun that most wouldn't consider because of cost. A new AYA #1 is up to about $19,000 now, a #2 approaching $9,000, but I have seen excellent examples of each for 1/4 to 1/3 of the current list price, truly excellent guns at bargain prices.
 
canvasback said:
I would agree that with vintage guns, the most important element of fit that needs to be close is DOC.

i don't agree fit is more important on a hunting gun than on a trap gun, which is what I was responding to. Fit is one of the few variables in trap and at the competitive level, one more clay out of 100 can be critical. Much like golf, the whole thing is about repeatability. Consistency. My experience is hunting is different. Few shots have the same elements....they can be similar.....but temps are different, footing is different, trajectory of the bird is different. Every shot is slightly, or greatly different. And we aren't in a competition against others where the goal is to shoot 100 birds straight. So fit should be close, but the requirement of exactness of fit is not critical.

I mentioned shooting driven game in England in my earlier post because it was that type of shooting that gave rise to the idea of the importance of fit in a hunting game gun. And similar to trap, when you are standing at a peg, the birds being driven overhead present a remarkable consistency of shot. Our North American style of hunting, what the Brits refer to as "walk-up" is very different.
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With a premounted gum, you have time to make adjustments if the gun desn't shoulder perfectly, when you need to quickly shoulder and swing the gun, either the gun shoulders properly, and you will likely kill the bird, or it doesn't shoulder properly, and you may not even realize it. So for me, fit is a priority on my hunting guns, just as it is with my clays guns. When I am hunting, I want to kill every bird I shoot at, and a crippled bird is worse to me than a missed clay. And I won't hunt with any shotgun, unless I have shot skeet with it, and am at least 90% with it.
 
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imo James is spot on,and were all slipping off the op's rails ...but another point that nobody seems to realize is barrel length - with the same stock dimensions ,longer barrel length on a given gun will point different

with all that's been said ,and i don't care what the op decides to do ...his best option for that price range ( at the risk of redundancy ) is a modern gun purchased in the white from a good maker then built to spec -it will take the full bankroll depending on engraving...and worth the wait
 
I handled a gorgeous john long 12ga 2.5" sxs double powell english hammer gun today for a fifth of your budget. It almost came home with me but i passed on it as i own a linder charles daly sxs
Not sure if hammers are your thing but the gun has sweet wood and ouzes class
 
canvasback said:
All good advice. I'd just make the observation that at 6' 2" and 240 pounds, you are a bit of an outlier, size wise. For many of us (I'm 5"11 and 175) finding a decent fit in a vintage shotgun is much easier than you allude to.
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Actually, that is precisely the point I was making by mentioning my size, though I suppose I didn't phrase it well. Thank you for pointing that out, as it is an important consideration. I am an outlier, and we do not know the OP's size. I do hope that he will be able to find a used SxS that will fit his criteria,but the bigger he is, the less likely that is. I have shouldered a great many fine shotguns at gun shows that I would like to buy (sometimes at quite good prices), but they are so far from fitting me that they are a bad idea no matter the price. I just cannot justify $1500+ for a new stock on a $500 gun. I might if it was a Holland & Holland, but for most it isn't worth it, at least not within my budget.

The clothing that a person wears does make a considerable difference. When you can mount a gun prior to shooting, such as in trapshooting, a person can accommodate different clothing, and thus, different required length-of-pull. When hunting, this can be a problem when using gun fitted for shirtsleeve weather with a heavy coat in winter. However, I also believe (as others have mentioned) that the drop at the comb and heel is more important, especially with a hunting gun. When the stock fits, you know that when you bring your eyes to center you will be effortlessly looking right down the rib. Of course, I do have a variety of guns that I hunt with in different temperatures; some shorter, some longer.

And thanks, Canvasback, the A&N is pretty nice. It has been well used but is still tight as a bank vault and the barrels chime beautifully. I think I got a fantastic deal on it because it probably didn't fit many people :~) I load my own 2.5" paper shells, so that's part of the fun for me, too!
 
Tharjoe, this is a bit off topic but you might consider posting some photos of your A&N in the stickied thread "Show us pics of your SxS". I had a lovely little A&N boxlock with the most beautiful, almost full coverage, engraving that I sold a couple years ago after 10 years in my safe. It had nice open chokes and at 6 pounds 4 oz and 28" barrels made a great ruffed grouse gun. But, and here's the tenuous connection to the topic at hand, the LOP was too short to live with.....13 1/4" original (had a skeleton butt plate). I used a Galco slip on pad to get it out over 14" but was never truly happy with that solution. It was from 1888 according to University of Glasgow. And while I don't load my own, I keep a stash of paper 2 1/2" shells for when I feel like going full vintage. LOL
 
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