IPSC Level III Shotgun match Registration is now open

Great match, great staff, great stages. My son and I had a blast (pun intended), the weak side stage was a welcome relief for the sore shoulder. I was plagued with mechanical and mental failures, but had fun, saw a lot of familiar faces and will be back again for the next one.

My son probably won the prize for the oddest open gun around, the 14 shot UTAS bullpup pump. Not the most recommended Open Division gun, but he just had to do it.
 
Well... That might be you, but...
Having actually done that (hosted matches where no formal qualifications were required) I have come to the opposite conclusion.
It's a bit rich to expect a MD to allow total strangers with unknown abilities run around on their range with a loaded shotgun... From what I've seen there needs to be at least a minimum standard of training.
Don't forget... for every one guy who despite having no formal training can safely handle their shotgun there are ten who "think" they can, but after the timer goes off... Obviously can't.
Hell, sometimes it's apparent BEFORE they step up to the start position .
Bottom line is... If you don't meet the standard/requirements set by whomever is running the match and think it's stupid...
Set up and run your own match and run it your way.

In my time as an instructor, I would suggest its USUALLY apparent before they step up to the start position.

As an educational program development officer, I can also tell you that the vast majority of firearms training programs and feel good endeavors that can not in any way be scientifically shown to reduce negative outcomes. Most at best, are simply a barrier that triggers people to self-select based on their own self perceptions. IE, one who knows they am not proficient, therefore they don't want to pay to take a course they may fail, and therefore don't try. Security deposits seem to have about the same effect, without the false sense of security or waste time from an unqualified training program.

Pauls Said: I get what you are saying, but people with "action jobs" and decades of experience do not necessarily translate into safe competitors.
I've RO'd at non-IPSC matches, and had the pleasure of running a squad which included members of law enforcement. I assume they qualify under your "action jobs" category.
Their gun handling was worse than anyone else I saw at the range that day.
I'm going to assume they were not top of their class...

Black badge course is not just a holster course.
And as for cost, I've never heard of one being $400+
Regardless, the course includes the instructors time and proper instruction during 2 days of shooting, course materials, the first year's membership fee.

Above all else, if a couple hundred for a fun and very educational course which proves to everyone around you that you have been deemed safe is the roadblock, then you haven't really considered the actual costs of competing in the shooting sports.

The fact that you reference police as being dangerous, despite all their training, is proof that training isn't the be all end all. Do You think the Black Badge course is better at training people in a single weekend then all the time spent at the police academy is at making people safe? Hardly. Has anyone conducted a reputable study to measure the effectiveness of that course specifically in terms of reducing accidents/incidents?

Most cops come in knowing hardly anything, and they leave the academy slightly improved. Likewise most people taking the black badge have years of experience, and probably would have been just fine without it, or could have achieved a similar effect with 15 minutes on the sideline with a good coach before running the match.

Proficiency is a life long journey. Putting too much faith into a single training course is going to breed a false sense of security.

Thank you for the offer, but I have neither the time nor the inclination to set up my own match, and am more than happy to compete in any of the non-IPSC matches that are available. Or to just not compete at all, and run and gun on my own or with friends.

If I were to run a match though, I would simply charge a $500 security deposit for safety rules violations, which is fully refundable if there are no issues, and then to waive the requirement for the deposit with anyone who has successfully competed 10 times without incident.

$400? Wow, that’s almost 4 times the cost of my black badge course and first year IPSC Membership.

But seriously, if you want to join the club, you’ve got to meet the standard set by the club. I used to think the same way but since I joined IPSC it’s been well worth the very small hassle of finding and attending a B.B. course.
I am fine with the club having its own rules. I don't like the rules, and therefore I don't join the club.

$400 is course fee, plus ammo costs, plus opportunity costs for time and travel. I have competed in many matches that require no such qualification, and in my experience they have never been any safer or more dangerous than any 'regulated' events I have observed, such as IPSC. Which seems a bit excessive as a pre-requisite to a shotgun match.

I am going to back away slowly here, cause I don't mean to be bad-mouthing IPSC. I just hope the idea of good shotgun matches catches on outside of that organization.
 
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Great match, great staff, great stages. My son and I had a blast (pun intended), the weak side stage was a welcome relief for the sore shoulder. I was plagued with mechanical and mental failures, but had fun, saw a lot of familiar faces and will be back again for the next one.

My son probably won the prize for the oddest open gun around, the 14 shot UTAS bullpup pump. Not the most recommended Open Division gun, but he just had to do it.

At least you didn't have to hammer on your gun :) It was good shooting with you guys.
 
Honestly Cameron, A lot of people (including myself) have challenged the BB approach in Canada. It’s very likely not going to change. In fact I think it’s spreading throughout other parts of the world

One thing I could never understand is why a person can’t challenge the practical piece of the B.B. course and do a provisional match after that. Without spending an entire weekend a large part of which is spent simply learning the rules of the game

It would be a decent approach at getting experienced shooters into the IPSC game. I came to ipsc already having both IDPA and 3 gun exerpience and I can say confidently that the BB didn’t increase or change my awareness of safety or competence at all. If the B.B. course is supposed to be a proficiency standard, then people should be allowed to challenge that standard without the full course

Having said all that, it is what it is. Rules/requirements are set by the body or club. Gotta follow them to play the game
 
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Are we saying that we just want to have the option to skip the 3 hours of seat time for the blurb and the test and just do the 16 hours on the range for the exercises? Or do we want to skip the 3 hours of seat time, do the exercises in a couple of hours and be done with that? That sounds good to me too. The only question is, which BB instructor is going to give you X number of hours solo to complete the exercises and at which club? There was one instructor who was doing an 8 hour day class with 3 shooters as opposed to a 16 hour 2 day class with 10 shooters but that got stopped by the BB coordinator and the regional director. Either way, a lot of people who love to see the BB course shortened, but none of them are the ones who get to make that call.
 
I've seen Onagoth shoot.
Knowing he passed the black badge course makes me feel like it should be made stricter, not more lax.


Edit:
Seeing as we're editing posts, I'll edit mine as well to include emojies that will hopefully convey the sarcasm and humour intended in my post.

:p;):d:wave::slap::stirthepot2::dancingbanana::dancingbanana::dancingbanana:
 
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I've seen Onagoth shoot.
Knowing he passed the black badge course makes me feel like it should be made stricter, not more lax.

Seems like an unfair comment. If people think I’m an unsafe shooter than this is the first I’m hearing about it
 
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I really don't know where people get these outrageous numbers from?

I did the IPSC Black Badge course three years ago.

It cost $300 total. $150 of that went to pay for two years of IPSC membership ($75 per year).

So the actual cost of the course was only $150.
And that is no different than the CSSA holster course that's offered at my local club on a regular basis.

That holster course also takes a weekend commitment, and costs $150.
 
I really don't know where people get these outrageous numbers from?

I did the IPSC Black Badge course three years ago.

It cost $300 total. $150 of that went to pay for two years of IPSC membership ($75 per year).

So the actual cost of the course was only $150.
And that is no different than the CSSA holster course that's offered at my local club on a regular basis.

That holster course also takes a weekend commitment, and costs $150.

Some people include the cost of the ammo in the overall cost of doing the BB
 
I really don't know where people get these outrageous numbers from?

I did the IPSC Black Badge course three years ago.

It cost $300 total. $150 of that went to pay for two years of IPSC membership ($75 per year).

So the actual cost of the course was only $150.
And that is no different than the CSSA holster course that's offered at my local club on a regular basis.

That holster course also takes a weekend commitment, and costs $150.

The holster course at my range involved looking the senior range officer in the eye and assuring him I wouldn't fck it up.

My 6 year old has been shooting from a holster for three years without issue. Rocket science it is not. IF you want to pay 150 for it, by all means, fill yer boots. But don't try to tell me its necessary in order to shoot safely from a holster.
 
Honestly Cameron, A lot of people (including myself) have challenged the BB approach in Canada. It’s very likely not going to change. In fact I think it’s spreading throughout other parts of the world

One thing I could never understand is why a person can’t challenge the practical piece of the B.B. course and do a provisional match after that. Without spending an entire weekend a large part of which is spent simply learning the rules of the game

It would be a decent approach at getting experienced shooters into the IPSC game. I came to ipsc already having both IDPA and 3 gun exerpience and I can say confidently that the BB didn’t increase or change my awareness of safety or competence at all. If the B.B. course is supposed to be a proficiency standard, then people should be allowed to challenge that standard without the full course

Having said all that, it is what it is. Rules/requirements are set by the body or club. Gotta follow them to play the game

Thank you for this post.

Your experience with the BB is precisely what I was suggesting, and is what I have heard repeatedly from experienced shooters.

I think the answer to your question, why not offer BB on a test only basis, should be self evident. IPSC is a for profit business. It actively promotes this course as a recruitment tool.

The fact that some clubs adopt it as a precondition for ANY dynamic movement shooting is something I find bewildering. With all the regulations and junk requirements heaped on us, here we take on another one voluntarily.

Even if it were offered as a test only though, I still doubt I would do it, simply because I have no intent to compete in IPSC matches. After years at a club which had to share range time with an IPSC section, I can tell you that by far that the 5 worst experiences I have had as a gun owner and one time executive at the club was trying to manage the personalities of certain 'big names' in the IPSC world. First and foremost among them, in order to increase participation in IPSC among the general membership they were pushing for BB as a mandatory requirement for holster shooting, despite more than 50 years of incident free holster use. The claims that it will increase safety (beyond 100%) and eliminate the fictitious safety issues were clearly overstated. Having attended several practice sessions as a non BB'd member, just to see what the fuss was about, I was less than convinced of the merits of the course to eliminate safety concerns. I was able to witness first hand why our annual maintenance costs needed to include so many light bulbs.

I am sure the other 95% of IPSC shooters were fine folk, but some of these guys were on a serious agenda to establish their for profit sport to the detriment of the club as a whole, and even saw fit to tell students who paid for the course and their own ammo that they had to forfeit their brass as a tip to the instructors. SO, for all those guys that love the sport, great, glad you enjoy it. Thanks, but no thanks.
 
The holster course at my range involved looking the senior range officer in the eye and assuring him I wouldn't fck it up.

My 6 year old has been shooting from a holster for three years without issue. Rocket science it is not. IF you want to pay 150 for it, by all means, fill yer boots. But don't try to tell me its necessary in order to shoot safely from a holster.



Again... That may be you, but you're experience is by no means universal.
I've met many shooters who, without ANY formal training are GTG as far as I'm concerned, but... I've met/RO'd several that were a clear hazard on the range and some were even clear and unapologetic hazards
At best, all our opinions on this issue are based on anecdotal evidence anyway so... I think we're wasting bandwidth.
I mean it's fun to argue, but...

 
....
Even if it were offered as a test only though, I still doubt I would do it, simply because I have no intent to compete in IPSC matches. .....

Then why are you arguing here and in other threads about black badge/IPSC etc?

Go spend some quality time with your 6 year old.
Life is short, don't waste it #####ing on and online forum.
 
being new to ipsc i thought the BB course was 2 folds.
1. reinforce safety
2. teach us the rules of the game.
like the second time i took the BB course with a bunch of "action job" type fellows. They kept shooting the black "no shoots" for some reason and with multiple engagements. maybe thats why ipsc uses white as "no shoots" now.
Im just thankfull they dont use yellow targets...being oriental and all...
 
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