Will new brass help for accuracy?

[MartyK2500]

The problem with virgin Lapua brass is that the neck tension is fairly tight, and sometimes the necks are dinged a bit from rough handling during transport.

I find my best groups are after 2-3 firings with careful brass prep which the OP is doing - body die to set the shoulder back consistently, Lee Collet die to set neck tension, and trim/chamfer/deburr to consistent length (with a Girad trimmer in my case).

My brass was damaged after it’s first firing, i will explain.
I used to wet tumble, which had it’s lots of problems.
My neck sizer stuck in more than a few necks, elongating necks.
My neck turner pilot would get stuck inside, making uneven neck thickness.

Since then i am dry tumbling, which has corrected all my problems.
But am thinking that firing brass 3x times since initial mistakes, may not have buffed my beginning mistakes.

Right now everything rocks, and dry tumbling saved the day.
Here is my procedure, everything is done every firing.

Dry tumble
Decap
Primer pocket uniform/clean
Anneal
Body size redding 2 thou bump
Neck size lee collet
Neck turn forster at 12.5 thou
Trim/chamfer/debur 3in1 forster
Prime with CCI BR2
Powder with AD FX120 with auto trickler and varget
Seat bullet with forster benchrest micro die on a separate press next to powder

This setup literally has zero or very little run out.
Since the brass was tortured in its begginings it’s having an effect on my mental game.

 

[FirearmsEnthusiast]

My brass was damaged after it’s first firing, i will explain.
I used to wet tumble, which had it’s lots of problems.
My neck sizer stuck in more than a few necks, elongating necks.
My neck turner pilot would get stuck inside, making uneven neck thickness.

Since then i am dry tumbling, which has corrected all my problems.
But am thinking that firing brass 3x times since initial mistakes, may not have buffed my beginning mistakes.

Right now everything rocks, and dry tumbling saved the day.
Here is my procedure, everything is done every firing.

Dry tumble
Decap
Primer pocket uniform/clean
Anneal
Body size redding 2 thou bump
Neck size lee collet
Neck turn forster at 12.5 thou
Trim/chamfer/debur 3in1 forster
Prime with CCI BR2
Powder with AD FX120 with auto trickler and varget
Seat bullet with forster benchrest micro die on a separate press next to powder

This setup literally has zero or very little run out.
Since the brass was tortured in its begginings it’s having an effect on my mental game.

Very through process, and very similar to mine! Of course primer pocket uniforming and neck turning are once-only operations typically. Wet tumbling does have one major drawback for precision which you have encountered - the brass gets ‘too clean’ and loses the carbon layer that helps to lubricate the necks during the resizing process. This keeps the expander (or the Center post of the collet die) from hanging up in the case mouth leading to excessive stress and deformation of the neck/shoulder.

While you may be happy with dry tumbling, if you do ever consider going back to wet, then consider using graphite powder or a good case lube very sparingly inside the neck before any neck processing steps and things will go better.

Also, I wouldn’t be too frustrated overall - your original goal of 1/3 MOA requires the rifle/sight system, shooter and ammo to all be performing at their peak, in combination. Not always easy to achieve consistently. Perhaps review Litz’ excellent books on accuracy and precision shooting, and check every element in your system - the shooter may not be the “weakest link”...for example I have seen many shooters not use an anti-cant device, and even a small amount of cant will have a nasty horizontal dispersion at medum-long range.

Keep at it and keep us updated on progress!

 

[buji88]

My brass was damaged after it’s first firing, i will explain.
I used to wet tumble, which had it’s lots of problems.
My neck sizer stuck in more than a few necks, elongating necks.
My neck turner pilot would get stuck inside, making uneven neck thickness.

Since then i am dry tumbling, which has corrected all my problems.
But am thinking that firing brass 3x times since initial mistakes, may not have buffed my beginning mistakes.

Right now everything rocks, and dry tumbling saved the day.
Here is my procedure, everything is done every firing.

Dry tumble
Decap
Primer pocket uniform/clean
Anneal
Body size redding 2 thou bump
Neck size lee collet
Neck turn forster at 12.5 thou
Trim/chamfer/debur 3in1 forster
Prime with CCI BR2
Powder with AD FX120 with auto trickler and varget
Seat bullet with forster benchrest micro die on a separate press next to powder

This setup literally has zero or very little run out.
Since the brass was tortured in its begginings it’s having an effect on my mental game.

Your brass prep is similar to mine, this is what I do.

-Decap
-Wet tumble
-Anneal
-Full length sizing
-Trim/chamfer/deburr/Any misc primer pocket stuff (uniform, flashole debur)
-Ultra sonic clean
-Prime with BR2S
-Seat

Once thing you may look at is flash hole deburring. I've heard Lapua is way better as they drill flash holes rather than them punch like Federal does but there still can be burrs. Also, drills can make a 3 sided hole rather than a perfectly round as they wear. I will be investing in a K&M flash hole correcter soon. Maybe worth while for you as well.

 

[MartyK2500]

Your brass prep is similar to mine, this is what I do.

-Decap
-Wet tumble
-Anneal
-Full length sizing
-Trim/chamfer/deburr/Any misc primer pocket stuff (uniform, flashole debur)
-Ultra sonic clean
-Prime with BR2S
-Seat

Once thing you may look at is flash hole deburring. I've heard Lapua is way better as they drill flash holes rather than them punch like Federal does but there still can be burrs. Also, drills can make a 3 sided hole rather than a perfectly round as they wear. I will be investing in a K&M flash hole correcter soon. Maybe worth while for you as well.

I have a flash hole deburring tool, made by lyman.
When I used to use federal brass, it took large amounts of brass out. With lapua, after 10 casings which it did nothing, I didn't pursue it.
Even after 6x firings, my lapua flash holes look fine and dandy.

I may be paranoid, but I wouldn't want my brass in an ultra sonic basket once my neck has been sized.
I keep brass in plastic containers loose, but once my necks are sized, they arent's allowed to be loose until a bullet has been seated.
I use 40S&W factory ammo bullet trays, seems like the 308 base fits just nice in it.
That way the necks are out of harms way.

Very through process, and very similar to mine! Of course primer pocket uniforming and neck turning are once-only operations typically. Wet tumbling does have one major drawback for precision which you have encountered - the brass gets ‘too clean’ and loses the carbon layer that helps to lubricate the necks during the resizing process. This keeps the expander (or the Center post of the collet die) from hanging up in the case mouth leading to excessive stress and deformation of the neck/shoulder.

While you may be happy with dry tumbling, if you do ever consider going back to wet, then consider using graphite powder or a good case lube very sparingly inside the neck before any neck processing steps and things will go better.

Also, I wouldn’t be too frustrated overall - your original goal of 1/3 MOA requires the rifle/sight system, shooter and ammo to all be performing at their peak, in combination. Not always easy to achieve consistently. Perhaps review Litz’ excellent books on accuracy and precision shooting, and check every element in your system - the shooter may not be the “weakest link”...for example I have seen many shooters not use an anti-cant device, and even a small amount of cant will have a nasty horizontal dispersion at medum-long range.

Keep at it and keep us updated on progress!

My primer pocket uniform is a K&M drill bit adaptor, it did shave a little amount of brass the first time, I basically still use it every firing, because it does a quick job of carbon.
When I shoot, I insure this bubble on my rifle setup is always level.

Just googled Bryan Litz, seems like he's written a lot on the subject.
Will definitely get myself some reading material for this winter.

 

[Mystic Precision]

I suspect the next big area to investigate are your rests... front and rear.

If you look at F class shooting, you will find FTR where exotic bipods are used with very large rear bags. All of this is to control the recoil and ensure very consistent tracking. The consistency level that we run in FTR is what you are looking for inorder to get into the 1/3 MOA club.

if the rests cause your bullet release to be just 1/16" off desired, over the course of 5rds, you are in the 1/2 MOA or larger group size. Make one follow through mistake over the course of 5X 5rds and your average is larger then desired.

consider testing with a front pedestal rest to get the load perfect and prove that it will shoot as desired. Then move to a foldy bipod or whatever support and have at it.

Jerry

 

[MartyK2500]

This is something I had not considered Jerry,
I am still using a Harris bipod, with a regular small coretac solutions mini rear bunny for the bench, and a full size rear for the prone.
Even his full size bag does not look like the Fclass ones, they are compact.

I know my harris has better results on the bench if on carpet, and even the grains in the carpet have to be place accordingly so that the bipod glides between the carpet rifts, instead of jumping over them.
In this next picture it's at my local range where they carpeted the benches, in the way described above.

Then it would seem that I have quite the challenge ahead if I wish to pursue this with a harris and a rear bunny...

 

[kthomas]

Primer pocket and flash hole prep is a waste of time, IMO.

 

[AlexF]

...

 

[Mystic Precision]

This is something I had not considered Jerry,
I am still using a Harris bipod, with a regular small coretac solutions mini rear bunny for the bench, and a full size rear for the prone.
Even his full size bag does not look like the Fclass ones, they are compact.

I know my harris has better results on the bench if on carpet, and even the grains in the carpet have to be place accordingly so that the bipod glides between the carpet rifts, instead of jumping over them.
In this next picture it's at my local range where they carpeted the benches, in the way described above.

Then it would seem that I have quite the challenge ahead if I wish to pursue this with a harris and a rear bunny...

I know of a handfull of shooters with the consistency to do well in FTR off a Harris... NONE of them use one now... it is just WAAYYYY too much work and with the level of competition racing towards F Open scores, you just can't risk it.





These rigs let me bughole at 250yds... 1/4 to 1/3 moa groups are certainly possible and limited to the driver.

I believe that to agg whatever MOA, your gear must have the mechanical accuracy better then the end goals... We all make mistakes and in a 5X5rds challenge on 1 target, one out and the target is trashed.



Not easy to do in a 308 Win chassis rifle... but it is possible with the right type of front support. Focus on a solid rest as that is your weakest element in your set up.

Jerry

 

[MartyK2500]

I'll see what a clean rifle can produce soon enough.
But if I was to purchase a specialty bipod, can I load develop/zero rifle/try record groups with good bipod, and shoot field with my harris, without shift in impact?
I know it's a newbie question, but I still am, lot's of things I don't understand yet in the rifle world.

 

[Mystic Precision]

Any change in load tuning between a FTR type bipod and a Harris/Atlas is tied to inconsistency in follow through by the shooter.

With that chassis, the barrel is insulated from the bipod wrt to vibration. how the shooter reacts to the recoil WILL affect the tuning.... so, if you are equally consistent, makes no difference.

I have spent this summer relearning how to shoot from a Harris... same rifle, same load.. just me trying to remember, how to load the bipod and control the follow through. I am almost as stable as with the MPOD but it sure takes more effort and concentration.

Can be done but not as easy

Jerry

 

[kthomas]

It's all about the proper application of the fundamentals. Look up the Youtube video "bipods don't hop". If you apply the fundamentals, you can shoot great groups from any bipod. My smallest 5 shot group was shot with a Ckye-Pod (spiked metal feet) off of concrete. That group was less than 1/10 MOA.

Give the Harris a chance. It's a much more versatile bipod than the M-Pod. I would hate to have to swap out bipods.

 

[Lead hammer]

This is something i never had the patience for, sorting by volumetric capacity, or sorting bullets.
I will try and see if i can squeeze more without going there.

My current method produces practically zero runout.
All my ammo is vetween 0.5 and 1 thou runout.

What bullet seating procedure do you use?

I don't do anything particular yet. But things like getting the bullet part way in, then backing out the round then seating all the way. ( kinda like the Lee collet procedure ) However with your runout that low don't bother. I'm happy if my rifle does 1/2 MOA. And I have gotten better than that. I have been testing Berger VLDh 140's and they are better than 143ELDX so far when I group them by base to ogive, but if I am in the middle of a seating depth node, it might not matter that much anyway, at least until the throat starts eroding. My shooting needs work the most before I can tell anything further. I do struggle with my Harris bipod, especially on the concrete bench, it's much better on my wood bench.

 

[MartyK2500]

Jerry, will have to study then before attempting better groups with the rifle.
Inconsistency in follow through... In pistols I don't want to brag but have an excellent no flinch and follow through, I can manage it to 44 magnum without the slightest problem. It consist of staying on sights and well grip through all the recoil impulse.
In rifle, is inconsistent follow through the same? As in leaving the sight picture or grip until the shot is really over?

Loading the bipod, I have heard the term before. On carpet from a seated position, seems almost impossible to do, that's why I insure that carpet is placed right so the bipod may slide rearwards and doesn't hop.
Prone on a shooting mat, I can push forward on my rifle and the bipod feet stick to the shooting mat, this way I feel like the bipod is well anchored. Is this what pre-loading is about?

thomas, I have watched that video.
Good thing, I saw a harris on a wood deck and looked as stable as anything else. Bad thing, the video has little educational purposes, only to show people doing it but without explanation.
At my local range, I have tried the m-pod on another shooters rig. I know that for a seated stance, it was easier to manage than my harris, and had quality to it.
But since I am out of competition circles, I still shoot at the range 2-3 times a week (mainly pistol), just shoot local matches and such, all this to say, I have started to steer away from racing gear.
If I am going to shoot for my own enjoyment and personal challenge, I try to do it in the most practical way, so my gear is getting more and more tactical without going over board, and think the harris fits that mindset well.

 

[MartyK2500]

I don't do anything particular yet. But things like getting the bullet part way in, then backing out the round then seating all the way. ( kinda like the Lee collet procedure ) However with your runout that low don't bother. I'm happy if my rifle does 1/2 MOA. And I have gotten better than that. I have been testing Berger VLDh 140's and they are better than 143ELDX so far when I group them by base to ogive, but if I am in the middle of a seating depth node, it might not matter that much anyway, at least until the throat starts eroding. My shooting needs work the most before I can tell anything further. I do struggle with my Harris bipod, especially on the concrete bench, it's much better on my wood bench.

I will be honest I never played around ''much'' with seating depths.
And another tidbit, my load is inspired from an article I read about Brad Sauvé, which had great success with 43gr Varget and 175SMK about 20 thou off lands.
Did my load dev around the lower node, 20 thou jump, and everything was sub 3/4 moa in 5 shot groups at 200M. The 42.7gr stuck out for me at the time.

I perceive that my harris is not giving me problems, but it may be giving some, what struggle is it giving you?

 

[Maple57]

Sometimes we focus so hard on a certain thing being the problem that we turn a blind eye toward any number of other more fundamental and basic problems.

First is parallax… How certain are you that you have parallax dialed out?
Do you really understand how to confirm parallax is out?

Second… your ES is not what I would consider low… are you weight sorting your brass?

Third… how are you weighing powder… to how many decimal places in grains? Hopefully three.

Fourth… Atmospheric issues and mirage visually displaces the target, so where the target appears is not always where the target actually is. Are you aware of that and how are you watching for it? You can have someone else next to you watch the target through a scope (with parallax dialed out) mounted on a tripod so its static. If mirage displaces the target he can tell you where.

Ok if you have the above dialed in… annealing brass does more than keep your necks from cracking early. Keep in mind, the necks form a gas seal that prevents the back flow of pressure. Hard necks don’t seal as quickly as soft annealed brass, so annealed brass is prone to lower your ES and thus flatten out the vertical spread caused by speed differences (which won’t add up to much vertically at only 200 yards) but perhaps more importantly influence where in the barrel oscillation cycle the bullet leaves the barrel.

 

[MartyK2500]

1. I dial in the parallax that’s indicated on my scope, so 200 at 200.
I could make a search to see how to dial parallax on scopes with no markings, and double check if it’s actually calibrated.
It’s something i overlooked, on a 22lr i had problems at 50 with a fixed parallax 100 scope, i understand the effects, just took for granted that the razor was properly marked.

2. No i don’t. It’s all lapua same lot same firings.
It’s something i hope i won’t have to do to get to 1/3 moa. Not the kind of job i like.

3. Weighing with an FX120. 0.02gr accurate. I got tweezers and sometimes add/remove 1 kernel of varget, which is exactly 0.02gr on this scale.

4. I am aware that on heavy mirage afternoons i get into difficulties. So i go early morning when there is none.
Often shoot on my own. Got a spotting scope comming in a week, i’ll give it a few good looks in heavy mirage and see.

I do anneal every firing.
And find my annealing machine O.K. (Annealeez).
Wish i had the budget for the new AMP mkll, that machine looks awesome.

 

[kthomas]

No point in weight sorting brass - just a waste of time.

https://www.petersoncartridge.com/about/technical-articles/75-weight-sorting-fact-or-fiction

 

[Lead hammer]

I will be honest I never played around ''much'' with seating depths.
And another tidbit, my load is inspired from an article I read about Brad Sauvé, which had great success with 43gr Varget and 175SMK about 20 thou off lands.
Did my load dev around the lower node, 20 thou jump, and everything was sub 3/4 moa in 5 shot groups at 200M. The 42.7gr stuck out for me at the time.

I perceive that my harris is not giving me problems, but it may be giving some, what struggle is it giving you?

I find on the bench, I do not always get behind the rifle properly. So the recoil impulse will make my scope not return to the target properly. My last outing was 4 shots at 535 yards. Group measured 4.25’. One round was left, if I removed it my 3 shot was like 2-2.5”. One of two things happened there, either the tail wind I had switched to 5:00. ( it had been from 7:00-5:00) or I did not square up properly. ( most likely ) My alignment can get crossed up, and results in a slight twist in the bipod. Ever so slight, but I can see it in the follow through. Once I get this fixed, it’s back focusing on the reloading.

 

[Maple57]

1. I dial in the parallax that’s indicated on my scope, so 200 at 200.
I could make a search to see how to dial parallax on scopes with no markings, and double check if it’s actually calibrated.
It’s something i overlooked, on a 22lr i had problems at 50 with a fixed parallax 100 scope, i understand the effects, just took for granted that the razor was properly marked.

2. No i don’t. It’s all lapua same lot same firings.
It’s something i hope i won’t have to do to get to 1/3 moa. Not the kind of job i like.

3. Weighing with an FX120. 0.02gr accurate. I got tweezers and sometimes add/remove 1 kernel of varget, which is exactly 0.02gr on this scale.

4. I am aware that on heavy mirage afternoons i get into difficulties. So i go early morning when there is none.
Often shoot on my own. Got a spotting scope comming in a week, i’ll give it a few good looks in heavy mirage and see.

I do anneal every firing.
And find my annealing machine O.K. (Annealeez).
Wish i had the budget for the new AMP mkll, that machine looks awesome.

Forget the label for distance to dial out parallax... that is not close enough for the accuracy you are looking for.

Aim the rifle at your target so it sits there without your help.... then move your head around... side to side and up and down... watch to see if the reticle is moving... it almost always does... then adjust the parallax until you can move your eye around and the target and reticle do not move in relation to each other no matter where you view it from in the scope.

Are you using full length resized cases or are they fire formed and only neck resized?

Weight sort your brass no matter who suggests that its a waste of time. If the cases weigh the same and they are fire formed to your rifle and only neck resized, then they are volumetrically identical.

Tolerances add up... nothing is irrelevant. The more identical everything is the less total variation you will have.

That's not an inexpensive scale, but it is not all that accurate... it's rated to increment at 0.154 grains. Mine is accurate to 0.00154 grains... Vibra HT.

Make a validation weight for your scale... cut a piece of wire to weight the same as your powder charge plus the weighing pan. Once you think you have the right weight... double check back and fourth a couple times switch between the wire confirmation weight and your pan... make sure you get the same value each time.