Fort Qu'Appelle legion members quarrel over reclaiming WW1 cannon

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Fort Qu'Appelle legion members quarrel over reclaiming WW1 cannon

An argument over the rightful place of a century-old German field cannon has pitted a councillor from the RM of Weyburn against a group of legion members in Fort Qu'Appelle

Arthur White-Crummey, Regina Leader-Post

Published on: May 14, 2018 | Last Updated: May 14, 2018 7:00 AM CST


An argument over the rightful place of a century-old German field cannon has pitted a councillor for the RM of Weyburn against a group of legion members in Fort Qu’Appelle.

The 77 mm Feldkanone 96 came to Fort Qu’Appelle in 1920 as a war trophy captured from the Germans in one of the battles of Ypres during the First World War. It spent 98 years in the town, first in Treaty 4 Park and then near the local legion.

But one day a man named Jack Lowe hauled it off, with an eye to having it restored. He said there was talk of sending the historic cannon to a steel mill as scrap, and claims a former mayor — now dead — gave him permission to save it. It sat in his yard until last August, after he decided he was too old to keep caring for it.

That’s when Dan Cugnet picked up the weapon.

“My sole goal is to see it restored, ensure that it is preserved, and eventually accessible to the public, whether that’s a museum of some kind or some other institution eventually,” the RM of Weyburn councillor said. “That’s the idea.”

But some legion members in Fort Qu’Appelle say the the cannon belongs in the town. It’s a reminder of those who fought, and a rare one at that — hundreds of captured enemy field guns were melted down for scrap years later to support the Second World War effort. Harold Skaarup, an amateur historian with expertise on war trophies, can only account for 38 WW1-era Feldkanone 96’s still on display across the country.

“It’s part of our town’s heritage,” said legion member Humphrey Bartlett. “It was given to Fort Qu’Appelle, to the town, in memory of people who were in the First World War.”

Bartlett doesn’t believe Lowe, himself a legion member, ever had the right to give the weapon away.

“Just the whole bloody thing is wrong,” he said. “I’m making noises trying to get it back.”

Doug Dawson, the legion’s past president, said he was “quite disappointed” to learn that the cannon had left town. He assumed that Lowe would eventually return it to its longtime home near the legion.

“It should have stayed there,” he said.

The cannon is now in Weyburn in a secure location, said Cugnet. He has no intention of selling the weapon or of returning it to Fort Qu’Appelle.

“I feel like I’ve been entrusted to make sure that it’s restored and preserved,” he said. “I don’t think that is what was happening.”

He calls any argument that the cannon didn’t belong to Lowe “absolutely ridiculous.” Lowe agrees. He claims the town didn’t want the cannon, leaving it to suffer neglect and vandalism for years — a point Bartlett disputes.

Lowe said he cared for the weapon long before he hauled it to his home.

“I worked on it for about 10 years, piece by piece,” he said. “I put it back together again. I don’t know how many thousands of dollars I put into it — a fortune.”

He resents the recriminations coming from some of his fellow legion members.

“Everybody’s going to kill me over this,” Lowe said. “…I should have let it go to IPSCO (now Evraz) to be melted down.”

There is some talk that the town should force the cannon’s return. Administrator Larry Davidson told the Fort Qu’Appelle Times that the cannon remains Crown property. It can’t just be given away.

“It is now a question of how do we get it back,” the paper quoted him as saying.

But Fort Qu’Appelle Mayor Jerry Whiting is advising patience. He told the Leader-Post that the town will wait for the local legion to complete an inquiry before taking action.

“I think we’re jumping to conclusions here,” he said. “I’m going to rely on the legion’s response and then we can take action from there.

“It’s a matter of establishing ownership — who’s entitled to have that equipment.”

Cugnet said the cannon is now in relatively good condition, considering its age. He said it will need metal work, painting and refinishing, as well as repairs to the wheels.

“I’m still caught off guard that it’s a controversy or a story at this point,” he said. “This story should be about preserving history and honouring all of the men and women that have served our country, in the past, present and future.”

awhite-crummey@postmedia.com

This First World War cannon is caught in the middle of a dispute between some Fort Qu'Appelle legion members and Weyburn area resident Dan Cugnet. It's seen here in the yard of Jack Lowe. (Photo submitted by Dan Cugnet.)

cannon.jpg


http://thestarphoenix.com/news/saskatchewan/fort-quappelle-legion-members-quarrel-over-reclaiming-ww1-cannon/wcm/988a20ad-17b5-4569-9be5-2bc02d743298
 
I now where 2 of those are :) both recently restored and painted the correct colour.

as for legions giving away stuff I was offered a 17 Pounder anti-Tank gun that was sitting in front of a legion. I don't think the guys offering it up had the legal right to do so.
 
I now where 2 of those are :) both recently restored and painted the correct colour.

as for legions giving away stuff I was offered a 17 Pounder anti-Tank gun that was sitting in front of a legion. I don't think the guys offering it up had the legal right to do so.

Pretty sure all of these are "loaned" by the military, as if to a museum. No ownership transfers.
 
Pretty sure all of these are "loaned" by the military, as if to a museum. No ownership transfers.

Yes, the RCA museum is the office of interest for artillery pieces and has a registry of artillery pieces on display that they care for on behalf of the Queen. Pieces were given to towns and cities by the Federal Government after WW1 in a permanent caretakership to care for in memory of their war dead. Town of Oromocto failed to look after 2 Italian guns they and the military took em back, so there's that.
 
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Lots of disputes just like this in the U.S. over civil war cannons. A lot of artillery pieces were stationed at cemeteries that contained war dead. A lot of them remained in place when the cemeteries were transferred from municipal to private ownership, subsequent owners just assumed ownership and when value increased dramatically in the past few years many of them were sold. Now the Sons of the Confederacy & the GAR (Grand Army of the Republic) are reclaiming ownership and winning court cases to prove the fact. Many cannons that were sold for many thousand of dollars have been returned to their rightfull owners...no restitution is given to the unlucky buyers. this is what should happen to this piece...the Weyburn chap has no ground to stand on as far as I'm concerned.
 
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In 1916, the British Government made and agreement with the "colonies" that any captured equipment and weapons were to become the property of the capturing party. The Caveat to this was that if the British Government needed that piece of equipment, then they would have it. Many German 7.7 cm guns were converted and armed Naval Auxillary and Merchant vessels, and were put on pedestal mounts for Harbour defences.

With a demand for these "War Trophies" after WWI, the Canadian Government appointed a three man Commission to distribute the better shape trophies to interested parties. Over 500 Cannons, 350 Mortars and 2000 Machine guns were given out. There were conditions to this, the most important of them being:

1. The item was to remain the property of the Dominion of Canada.

2. The item was to be manintained in reasonable condition.

3. The parties that received these War Trophies HAD NO VESTED INTEREST IN THEM. THEY COULD NOT BE SOLD OR DISPOSED OF BY THOSE
RECEIVING THEM.

In 1942, a large scrap drive was initiated by the Minister of Supply, and a large percentage of these War Trophies were given up for SCRAP. By that time, wooden wheels had broken down, and the attitude of the people was much different than the citizens of 1920.

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In 1916, the British Government made and agreement with the "colonies" that any captured equipment and weapons were to become the property of the capturing party. The Caveat to this was that if the British Government needed that piece of equipment, then they would have it. Many German 7.7 cm guns were converted and armed Naval Auxillary and Merchant vessels, and were put on pedestal mounts for Harbour defences.

With a demand for these "War Trophies" after WWI, the Canadian Government appointed a three man Commission to distribute the better shape trophies to interested parties. Over 500 Cannons, 350 Mortars and 2000 Machine guns were given out. There were conditions to this, the most important of them being:

1. The item was to remain the property of the Dominion of Canada.

2. The item was to be manintained in reasonable condition.

3. The parties that received these War Trophies HAD NO VESTED INTEREST IN THEM. THEY COULD NOT BE SOLD OR DISPOSED OF BY THOSE
RECEIVING THEM.

In 1942, a large scrap drive was initiated by the Minister of Supply, and a large percentage of these War Trophies were given up for SCRAP. By that time, wooden wheels had broken down, and the attitude of the people was much different than the citizens of 1920.

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And then in more recent times and under a dark cloud of mystery and deceit the Farley Mowat StuG, captured by the Seaforths in WWII vanishes from Canada to the USA for a number of years then on to the UK where it resides after a deep and detailed restoration.

https://www.scribd.com/doc/241818390/Stug-III-survivor-tank

 
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I've seen a list from the interwar period of weapons, equipment, and vehicles that were supplied to towns and service clubs. So many went missing. Entire Sherman tanks disappeared to "Bob who is going to restore it" who sells it to out of country buyers for big bucks.
 
Most monuments, be they tanks, vehicles or guns, are slowly rusting away outside of museums, barracks, etc... They should be restored and kept inside while they are still in good enough shape... Many just end up as scrap when they are under the “care” of various governmental entities... I like when they finally restore some old guns and then just put them right back outside to rust again some more!
 
I've seen a list from the interwar period of weapons, equipment, and vehicles that were supplied to towns and service clubs. So many went missing. Entire Sherman tanks disappeared to "Bob who is going to restore it" who sells it to out of country buyers for big bucks.

Wasn't there a similar story about a Sherman that the Strathcona's had that ended up going to the US or something?
 
The small town I grew up in in cen. Ab. had a Lewis machingun at the base of a cenotaph that we gathered around on Nov. 11 every year...until the community hall board rented the hall to a bunch of U.of A. engineering students one year (late 60's, very early 70's) for there year end banquet. The next morning the gun was gone never to be seen again... Until I was at the spring Calgary gun show 5 yrs ago or so, there was one set up for display. "our" gun had distinctive battle damage that the gun on display had as well. Forty years of water under the bridge since it went missing so I didn't say anything but have been kind of kicking myself for not doing so.
 
Pretty much what Buffdog has said, here are the official directives from the Report of the War Trophies 1920.

1. All Trophies of war are the exclusive property of the state. The Government may select and reserve any such trophy and afterward make such disposition of the remainder as may appear to be in the best interest of the country.
2. Only trophies which are of a durable nature, and of which there is considerable quantity, such as guns, Howitzers, Trench Mortars, Brass Shell Cases, Machine Guns and Rifles, should, except in special instances, become the subject of distribution.
3. The proper care and maintenance of all such trophies as may be allotted to is, in as good a state as when received, should be guaranteed by the municipality or other body to whom they may be entrusted. All such trophies should remain the property of the Dominion of Canada, and if the municipality or other body to whom such an allotment is made, neglects or becomes unable to take proper care of such trophies, they should revert to the Government of the Dominion. No such trophy or trophies should at any time be sold or otherwise disposed of by such municipality or other body. As many of these trophies are in a damaged condition, every gun or other trophy of that character, should be inspected by a competent armament officer of the militia department, and a record made of it's condition before distribution. A copy of such record should be sent to the municipality or other body to which trophies are allotted for its information.

We recently sent a German field gun wheels off to the local wheelwright for refurbishment. They were not simple wheels such as found on horse wagons. The cost was around $2K per wheel. The carriage needed some repair due to corrosion, as well as re-upholstery of the seats. After stripping, the whole gun was painted with a good coat of POR15 to preserve the metal, and then top coated with appropriate colours. So in total, refurbishment of a gun ran about $5K, but that was with us using some in house labor and material. A legion could well be on the hook for closer to $6K most likely. To that end, there are grants available from the department of veterans affairs for the upkeep of the monuments.

The legion members were correct....the deceased mayor had no authority to dispose of the gun. However, a lot of years have passed, and nobody is really following up on these things. Our museum does, occasionally, get monument guns offered to us, however my own feeling is that it is preferential to advise the municipality of the VA grants so that the guns may continue to represent the sacrifice of the soldiers who went to the Great War.
 
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