Updates 2018-10-14...grrr...Federal Trophy Bonded and Forster Micro Seating die...

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RonR

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…grrr… having some funky stuff going on with seating the new Federal Trophy bonded bullet and the Forster micrometer seating die.
It seems as though the bullet is “sticking” to the seating stem with a “snap” back type of action when the ram is returning down to remove the seated bullet.

Anyone have issues seating this bullet in general? I don’t know the type of coating the bullet has…I’ll say it’s a nickel type finish for those of you familiar with these…but I don’t know otherwise.

Tried the following
- Forster recommends after bottoming out the die after full spring compression, 1 full rotation back. Tried 2 full rotations, then a third. No avail.
- To test, tried dipping the bullet (after seated long) with the graphite Redding dry lube to see if the bullet would not stick…seating depth approached target but the snap back action on the press remained

Other points
- Using the Hornady comparator tool, completed round seems to be difficult to rotate in the tool, also observed as “sticky.”
- Other bullets like Sierra’s don’t have a problem, Nosler Accubond’s have this happen 10% of the time. These trophy bonded it’s like 90% of the time.
- Measured diameter of the trophy’s and the Accubond and Sierra’s don’t differ… in otherwords the bullets appear consistent as far as measurables.

I have had trouble with this die and sent it back for Forster for repair previously. I switched to a micrometer adjust seater so that when I switch bullets I can just dial it up and go and with the reported improved concentricity.

Forster by the reviews I’ve read, is very well respected… but I am going to be honest and express my frustrations. Outside of SMK’s there’s been variation and I can’t nail down whether it’s this tool, bullet variation, or brass prep out of whack that that doesn’t seem to be measurable… I am a guy that's into process. Once it's set, measuring every time should disappear when proven, and with this seater I just can't get there and it's driving me nuts.

If this tool is just for the bench rest guys then let me know that too. I’m not trying to shoot the eyeballs out of a gnat but just achieve some bullet seating repeatability. For me what’s acceptable is set point plus or minus 2 thou, with 75% at set point. With this arrangement creating dummy rounds to achieve set point is not an issue, but after primer and powder 75% are 8 thou long.

Apologies for the long read, for those of you that respond…thanks…I am at the end of my rope without some help. If I just need to chill, get away from the bench and pour a drink...then so be it.

Regards
Ronr

GIVENS:
- 7mm-08, Savage bolt.
- Lapua brass 5 x fired ( annealed, shoulder bumped with Redding shoulder bump die and neck turned at 3x )
- 5th season reloading
- Lee challenger breech lock press
- Lee neck collet
 
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rick357 said:
Compressed load - my thought as well. Maybe neck tension is too low. You say you annealed. Maybe too much and necks are now too soft to hold?
Click to expand...

The only times I get a snap from my Redding sleeved die is when the casing is not perfectly aligned and slip.

Too much neck tension or compressed load might spring back.
 
nowarningshot said:
I was going to suggest the seating stem, might have be the perfect shape to grab the bullet. But its happening on the comparator as well. Somewhat of a undersized die body?

Do you have access to another seating die? Seems simplist to eliminate the die first.
Click to expand...

Yup. Was thinking that. If it's not a compressed load I will give the old lee a try.


rick357 said:
Compressed load - my thought as well. Maybe neck tension is too low. You say you annealed. Maybe too much and necks are now too soft to hold?
Click to expand...

Icefire said:
You state dummy rounds are good but not with powder.
Are you compressing the load?
Click to expand...

I suddenly feel very foolish...never had an issue like that before. Thanks gentlemen. I will investigate and post again hopefully tonight when dad duties are done around here. In terms of neck being soft, at 3x fired was neck turning and annealing. Fired once for sure since that point. Still possible but...


Icefire said:
The only times I get a snap from my Redding sleeved die is when the casing is not perfectly aligned and slip.

Too much neck tension or compressed load might spring back.
Click to expand...

Noted on the case alignment possibly being an issue. Never thought of that. On this end it's repeatable. Of 15 rounds for OCW testing only 3 set nicely, and at varied tenths of a grain. Too much neck tension I can see as problematic. I've had to work on getting 2 thou neck tension consistently ergo annealing and neck turning. From history I suspect I would be under that.

As both of you have indicated...it's likely a compressed load but I will throw some charges tonight and post back.

Thanks for the responses so far...I appreciate it.

Regards
Ronr
 
I loaded a fired case with the highest charge (41.7 g of VV540) and dropped in a TB. The bullet sank about .025 lower than set point base to ogive. Unless my understanding of a compressed load is incorrect, it seems as though there is room yet in the case. On one hand I was hoping that would explain the situation, on the other hand I'm not disappointed because this bullet/powder/primer combination is too promising to give up on.

So...I am looking at neck tension now. After bullet is seated the neck diameter expands .002 in diameter. That's 2 thou neck tension correct? That doesn't seem to be excessive but maybe it is. I usually use a dry neck lubricant to seat bullets but in this case I didn't and maybe that's the culprit.

Can someone add/verify that my thinking is not incorrect?

I don't know much about this bullet coating, but the bullet seems to bind in the comparator. Does this have some correlation to the idea of "sealing" to the brass case differently to create a too high of a neck tension/compressed load spring back effect when seating?

Another given that I should have provided was that these cases are ultrasonic cleaned. Is there any truth that this method can make the necks too clean?

… I am at a loss right now. I will have try to create some live rounds but this time using dry film lubricant in the necks.

Regards
Ronr
 
A friend of mine has the same issue with a .308 Forster seater. Forster uses a seating stem designed for high BC bullets such as VLD's and can have stiction issues with some bullets. I believe Forster sent him a new seating stem. I'll ask him whatever became of the issue.
 
supernova said:
A friend of mine has the same issue with a .308 Forster seater. Forster uses a seating stem designed for high BC bullets such as VLD's and can have stiction issues with some bullets. I believe Forster sent him a new seating stem. I'll ask him whatever became of the issue.
Click to expand...

This is interesting. Thanks for posting this.

I already sent this die back for repair. My understanding from Forster was that the metal composition of the seating stem changed to a harder type. This increased hardness sometimes was prone to failure such as cracking in the stem. IIRC the stem in the original die I purchased was confirmed to be cracked at repair because it left vertical marks in a few different 7mm bullets I was seating. I sent samples with die as evidence.

I would be interested in knowing your friends experience and whether a new stem solved the issue, and in particular if it was bullet specific. Perhaps my replacement is flawed...or perhaps its something with these coated bullets. If your friend just got a new stem without sending back I'd like to know that too. (bad timing with deer season on the horizon...and lack of time available for the bench and the range I know...)

Of course I could go back to the Lee seater for this bullet but in my mind the upgrade to the Forster seating die is something this die should be able to handle. I'd like to use it for all situations.

Much obliged!
Ronr
 
RonR said:
This is interesting. Thanks for posting this.

I already sent this die back for repair. My understanding from Forster was that the metal composition of the seating stem changed to a harder type. This increased hardness sometimes was prone to failure such as cracking in the stem. IIRC the stem in the original die I purchased was confirmed to be cracked at repair because it left vertical marks in a few different 7mm bullets I was seating. I sent samples with die as evidence.

I would be interested in knowing your friends experience and whether a new stem solved the issue, and in particular if it was bullet specific. Perhaps my replacement is flawed...or perhaps its something with these coated bullets. If your friend just got a new stem without sending back I'd like to know that too. (bad timing with deer season on the horizon...and lack of time available for the bench and the range I know...)

Of course I could go back to the Lee seater for this bullet but in my mind the upgrade to the Forster seating die is something this die should be able to handle. I'd like to use it for all situations.

Much obliged!
Ronr
Click to expand...

He said he had received an older design stem and they sent him the updated design. It was with 1 bullet but after the new stem was installed the problem went away.
 
supernova said:
He said he had received an older design stem and they sent him the updated design. It was with 1 bullet but after the new stem was installed the problem went away.
Click to expand...


I emailed Forster and we'll see what comes of that. something tells me the replacement seater (as part of the repair) may be the old design.

Again, thanks for your time.

Regards
Ron
 
Updates...

Sent some bullets to Forster after some correspondence. The result should be a seating stem honed to better take the shape of this bullet.

Loaded some more for testing however this time used motor mica inside the necks, which didn't occur last test batch, using the imperial application media system.

Much better however out of 15, two or three had the same snap back but much less intensity when it occurred.

I am starting to believe that there is some truth to having necks too clean with ultrasonic cleaning and the surface finish/coating of this bullet. Perhaps the friction during seating was causing a small amount of misalignment to jam the bullet in the seating stem?

Other bullets don't seem to be sensitive to the presence of dry neck lubricant nearly as much...or at all.

Regards
Ronr
 
Updates 2018-11-25.

Recieved a new seating stem this weekend. The bonus is that they returned the 3 trophy bonded bullets.

The bad part is that i wont have the new stem installed for a bit. Broke my right tibia in a couple of places on Tuesay and this is slowing me down quite a bit and ended opportunity to go white tail hunting. No field results which is also disappointing.

I am kind of pissy that i had to pay for a custom honed seating stem but understand Forster s position. $27 usf.

I will say that Forster is good to deal with once terms were agreed upon. Clear communication and shipping.

Regards
Ronr
 
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