Looking for info of some nice old SXS's

I can help with these guns.
1. Fred'k (short for Frederick) Williams, not Fredericks and Williams. In business in Birmingham from 1871 to 1955 on Weaman Street. Most of their production over the years was as a jobber or subcontractor to other makers and their own named guns are not common in Britain even though they were a solid medium sized maker. They made a wide range of standard to mid grade guns and their guns show up fairly frequently in Canada, I have seen 5-6 in the last five years and owned two, a medium grade boxlock like yours and a hammer gun which was the newer of the two.
2.William ( not Williams), Moore and Grey, founded as William Moore & Co in 1833 - or 1818, depending on your source of reference. They went through many mergers, addresses and name alterations and the name was widely copied on cheap Belgian imports. The business became William Moore And Grey in 1844 and there were many versions of the business name and address engraved on the top rib over the next 70 years which can aid in dating a specific gun. They were a very good London maker for a long time and were respected for thei medium to high grade guns although being largely unkown today their guns have no brand name premium attached.
3. Charles Boswell, recorded as 1869-1955 , he started on Upper Fore Street and moved in 1884 to No 126 The Strand until they were bombed out in 1941. Some later guns were actually produced in Canada in the 1980's. He was a very successful live pigeon competitor and they became best known for their live pigeon competition guns although they made vitually any type of double including rifles. Their production was mainly medium to high grade boxlocks.
I'm sure I have much more information on all three makers but I need more specific pictures of the guns, especially the proof marks and the engraving on the top rib. At that point and with more details I should be able to come up with a value range for each but don't get too excited, value rests mostly on original quality and current condition, although they definitely have some value. PM me and I will give you my e- mail to send pictures to and we can go from there. Jim
 
2. seems to be bar in wood which is a little more special if condition is good.
OP, I think by reaching out to Ashcroft you're really going to get yourself an education.
LS
 
Yes, the William Moore & Grey is a bar in wood gun which was more common in pinfires and early centre fire guns, but some continued to be made in decreasing numbers past 1900, you can even order a new one now if your pockets are deep enough. This one appears to have originally of high quality, perhaps on an obscure patent which was common in the 1860's, 70's and 80's. The bar in wood guns are pretty but tend to be fragile. The Frederick Williams is an older modest quality boxlock, possibly marked Anson & Deeley Patent and a use number. This patent stayed in force until 1889, the full 14 years allowed. The Boswell looks like a typical live pigeon gun of lower medium quality because of the side clips and the type of rib. All three are damascus barrelled of course and probably black powder proofed only, I wouldn't recommend using one without a thorough examination by someone who knows these types of guns and has the proper measuring tools. There could be a nice blackpowder shooter in the group. J.
 
Well, I had an opportunity to examine these guns and measure barrels, etc and I wound up buying the William Moore & Grey which is going to get a real good professional cleaning inside and out, a couple of barrel dents removed and a small area on the barrels touched up. It's pretty dirty and gummy but it has never been refinished and retains most case colours, barrel brown, excellent checkering and perfect engraving, although the stock finish is thin and gummy in places so it will need attention. As suspected, it is a black powder proofed 2 1/2" gun with barrel walls near minimum thickness having been rebored to remove pits. It locks up solid as new, really handles nicely and will make a great black powder shooter. Research confirms it was made in 1878 and yes it's a bar in wood and with double Purdy underbites and dolls head. Typical of the era it also has one or more very interesting patents applied including one I've never seen before.
The Charles Boswell turned out to be a very nice gun as well although with considerably more wear than the Moore & Grey. It is a much later gun, around 1898, a live pigeon gun with original Nitro Proofed 2 3/4" chambers, broad pigeon rib, side clips, very attractive and usable with standard modern 2 3/4" ammo, nice. Really good hammer guns with Nitro Proofed 2 3/4" damascus barrels by really good makers are rare as rocking horse poop. I really liked this feature and was tempted but the beauty of the Moore & Grey won out. It has also been purchased.
The Charles Hellis 16 is of high grade but has had a rough life. Again unusual, it is a well engraved A&D boxlock 16 gauge with 30" barrels. For someone willing to extend some love and spend some time and money this will make a beautiful and unusual gun by a very good London maker. It may still be available.
 
I was kind of bummed that you scored that Moore and Grey, Jim. But then stumbled onto a tight-actioned Wm. Powell lifter from 1874 and now feeling quite alright. Petty of me I guess.
 
I was just trying to evaluate the guns for the owner because at my age I'm not really a buyer any more but with the offer to sell I weakened. As always with these old beauties there are some things that need attention and will cost me but I think the resulting gun will be worth at least what I put into it which is more than I can say about some of my treasures. This one really fits me great, I'm a shooter and hunter, I Know it will shoot well for me after it has been completely gone through.I have a history of trying to get a good gun back as close to it's former glory as I can with the result that I have more money into some of my favourites than their actual true value. A vanity thing I guess but these guns I would never sell so the value is to me. I'm just learning to do pictures here but when this gun is ready I'll try to post some pictures. Well as you know we can never have them all and anyway we're not really the "owners" of these functional pieces of art and history, we're just the caretakers for awhile. Those Wm Powell lifters can be awesome as a bar in wood, had a chance at a really nice one ( a ten!) two years ago, hesitated and diddled and gone! J.
 
I can identify with those sentiments and looking forward to photos from your collection. I swore off buying guns, oh.. 8 months ago. I used to hunt and shoot but now it seems I just work on the hunt camp and chase my bird dog pup around. Had to go into the gun store a couple weeks ago to get blanks for starter's pistol to work with pup and could not help but notice this gun in the rack. So weak! I guess will rationalize it somehow - like promising myself will sell one to make room.
 
Ashcroft said:
I was just trying to evaluate the guns for the owner because at my age I'm not really a buyer any more but with the offer to sell I weakened. As always with these old beauties there are some things that need attention and will cost me but I think the resulting gun will be worth at least what I put into it which is more than I can say about some of my treasures. This one really fits me great, I'm a shooter and hunter, I Know it will shoot well for me after it has been completely gone through.I have a history of trying to get a good gun back as close to it's former glory as I can with the result that I have more money into some of my favourites than their actual true value. A vanity thing I guess but these guns I would never sell so the value is to me. I'm just learning to do pictures here but when this gun is ready I'll try to post some pictures. Well as you know we can never have them all and anyway we're not really the "owners" of these functional pieces of art and history, we're just the caretakers for awhile. Those Wm Powell lifters can be awesome as a bar in wood, had a chance at a really nice one ( a ten!) two years ago, hesitated and diddled and gone! J.
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I think there are few of us in the same club. I have a few of these old English guns that I would lose my shirt on if I ever sold them. And it's getting too cold to go without a shirt! But I learned very quickly that one should get involved with these old guns for the passion of the particular gun, not as a possible investment.
 
Londonshooter said:
I was kind of bummed that you scored that Moore and Grey, Jim. But then stumbled onto a tight-actioned Wm. Powell lifter from 1874 and now feeling quite alright. Petty of me I guess.
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A great action, Londonshooter! I have one bar-in-wood 12-bore pinfire gun by William Powell & Son of Birmingham, with the 'lifting' Powell patent no. 1163 of 1864. The Powell records show it was made in 1866, then re-sold (and re-numbered) by the maker in 1869 for 25 pounds, and converted again to dual pinfire-centre-fire.
 
gunsaholic said:
I think there are few of us in the same club. I have a few of these old English guns that I would lose my shirt on if I ever sold them. And it's getting too cold to go without a shirt! But I learned very quickly that one should get involved with these old guns for the passion of the particular gun, not as a possible investment.
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Oh boy. I'm with you and Ashcroft on this one Brian. Just about every gun I've sold, I haven't done much to. I'd hate to lock in the loss on the ones I have! LOL
 
Pinfire said:
A great action, Londonshooter! I have one bar-in-wood 12-bore pinfire gun by William Powell & Son of Birmingham, with the 'lifting' Powell patent no. 1163 of 1864. The Powell records show it was made in 1866, then re-sold (and re-numbered) by the maker in 1869 for 25 pounds, and converted again to dual pinfire-centre-fire.
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Steve, it is indeed a sweet action. For those that have not seen one you should post photos in the "different action types" sticky at beginning of forum. Mine is also by the "Purdey of Birmingham" but not a bar-in-wood, just a regular yet beautiful bar action. Someone blacked rather than browned the barrels which leaves me wishing there were more barrel finishers around. Has good CCH on receiver though, and a nicely figured stock. Oh, and no rebounding locks but rather self-returning firing pins.
 
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