NR for dangerous game in Ontario

Evanguy said:
What? This is backwards. The longer the barrel the more time you have to burn a slower powder also more time for the force to act on the bullet base.... Tipicaly you lose 25-50fps per inch of barrel you lose. Just adding a longrr barrel can add a lot of fps. A few hundred.

Very small cases that cant fit much powder into can lose Fps with a longer barrel. Like a 25acp or 22shot.

Even a 22 long rifle picks up fps until you get to a 14" barrel.
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Ok so the terminal ballistics are not affected just that the limiting factor is the bullet's trajectory: the best hunting bullets are heavy, so they are relatively slow yes? Great for about 100, 125 yards tops?
 
adamthebad said:
Rifle bullets typically penetrate less due to the deformation they under go resulting in larger frontal areas, probably the loss of mass, greatly reducing the SD, resulting in a rapid decay in velocity, and reduced penetration. The advantage of the expanding rifle bullet is the soft tissue wound volume that the deformation of the bullet in a fluid medium causes. Generally speaking, the faster the bullet impacts, the wider and shallower the wound becomes in soft tissue.

It is much more difficult to slow down a low velocity .

Mr Boomer

what would you say to projectiles being even as far as both being FMJ (pistol round fired in a rifle and a rifle round).
IMO i still think pistol cart in a rifle lessens the ability of the cartridge potential??
I know the limits on a Ruger SBH 44mag and know the capabilities/ranges
now take that same round and put it into a rifle and the capabilities are very similar (maybe a tad less)...the cartridge has not changed just the instrument to launch has.
A pistol round out of a rifle..
thoughts?
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I'm not a huge fan of pistol cartridges in rifles, although I get the argument. Small lever actions are a pleasure to carry, and they hold more rounds of pistol ammo than they do rifle ammo.

Perhaps we need to define some terms though to avoid confusion. To my mind a FMJ is a pointed military bullet that tends to swap ends in tissue and penetrate base forward or break in half at the cannelure to complicate wounds on the battle field, and for the most part it is illegal to use these bullets on big game.

A solid game bullet is another matter entirely. The best ones are short in length, have parallel sides, and a flat or hemispherical nose. Generally speaking, the faster you drive these things, the deeper they penetrate. The poor ones have tapered sides of the Kynoch style, and penetration tends to follow the path of least resistance. The good ones do pretty well making wound channels in light game due to supercavitation, or at least that was my experience on warthog, impala, and wildebeest. They are st their best on extremely large game like hippo and elephant, so there is not really any North American application for them except behaps bowhead whales, which doesn't really make the definition of a game animal. These bullets are also illegal in jurisdictions forbidding non expanding bullets.

A hardcast lead bullet is not considered non expanding, since it will expand if you drive it fast enough. My 480 gr .458 hardcast bullets don't upset at .45/70 velocities, but begin to at .458 velocities.
 
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Boomer said:
Mr Boomer

what would you say to projectiles being even as far as both being FMJ (pistol round fired in a rifle and a rifle round).
IMO i still think pistol cart in a rifle lessens the ability of the cartridge potential??
I know the limits on a Ruger SBH 44mag and know the capabilities/ranges
now take that same round and put it into a rifle and the capabilities are very similar (maybe a tad less)...the cartridge has not changed just the instrument to launch has.
A pistol round out of a rifle..
thoughts?
Click to expand...

I'm not a huge fan of pistol cartridges in rifles, although I get the argument. Small lever actions are a pleasure to carry, and they hold more rounds of pistol ammo than they do rifle ammo.

Perhaps we need to define some terms though to avoid confusion. To my mind a FMJ is a pointed military bullet that tends to swap ends in tissue and penetrate base forward or break in half at the cannelure to complicate wounds on the battle field, and for the most part it is illegal to use these bullets on big game.

A solid game bullet is another matter entirely. The best ones are short in length, have parallel sides, and a flat or hemispherical nose. Generally speaking, the faster you drive these things, the deeper they penetrate. The poor ones have tapered sides of the Kynoch style, and penetration tends to follow the path of least resistance. The good ones do pretty well making wound channels in light game due to supercavitation, or at least that was my experience on warthog, impala, and wildebeest. They are st their best on extremely large game like hippo and elephant, so there is not really any North American application for them except behaps bowhead whales, which doesn't really make the definition of a game animal. These bullets are also illegal in jurisdictions forbidding non expanding bullets.

A hardcast lead bullet is not considered non expanding, since it will expand if you drive it fast enough. My 480 gr .458 hardcast bullets don't upset at .45/70 velocities, but begin to at .458 velocities.[/QUOTE]

ok Thanks!
 
My goodness this thread has evolved a life of it's own and there isn't any snow on the ground yet.

A technical point "adamthebad", FMJ's are a military round, yes, but the reference to tumbling comes from the rate of twist on the original M16's not being rapid enough to stabilize the bullet, hence the tumbling. A fmj from a 3006, a 308, a 7.62x39, a 6.5x55 will penetrate deeply with a small wound channel. In fact IIRC there was a guy named Bell who killed a lot of elephants with a 6.5x54 Mannlicher - because of the deep penetration he did brain shots.
 
westcoaster said:
My goodness this thread has evolved a life of it's own and there isn't any snow on the ground yet.

A technical point "adamthebad", FMJ's are a military round, yes, but the reference to tumbling comes from the rate of twist on the original M16's not being rapid enough to stabilize the bullet, hence the tumbling. A fmj from a 3006, a 308, a 7.62x39, a 6.5x55 will penetrate deeply with a small wound channel. In fact IIRC there was a guy named Bell who killed a lot of elephants with a 6.5x54 Mannlicher - because of the deep penetration he did brain shots.
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Thank You...and FMJ was just a ref point as to establish a equal playing field for all projectiles, since wad cutters and mushroom points act slightly different with each cailber
 
The British did design their military rounds with aluminum and some with wood in the tip. These bullets have a tendency to upset and banana when they hit soft tissue. They were reported to pitch and yaw instead of the strait line penetration of other military bullets of the time. It was one way to increase lethality yet stay within the rules of the Hague Convention
 
ginsingjones said:
The British did design their military rounds with aluminum and some with wood in the tip. These bullets have a tendency to upset and banana when they hit soft tissue. They were reported to pitch and yaw instead of the strait line penetration of other military bullets of the time. It was one way to increase lethality yet stay within the rules of the Hague Convention
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interesting
 
Might be worth a separate thread but I'd like to debate the value of a mares leg and for that matter a pistol grip 870 short barrel in a real life SHTF situation where something with teeth and claws is chewing on yourself or someone you care about
 
A mares leg with full stock and a 14” or other short barreled shotgun with full stock are how these things are done by most now. I’ve had both, and have no faith in a 2 handed firearm that cannot be shouldered.
 
adamthebad said:
Agreed! pistol ammo from a pistol not from a rifle. A considerable number of rifles chambered for pistol cartridges are in the field. Most of these are used for hunting deer or feral hogs in brushy or wooded country, where shots are likely to be fairly close range. The only advantage the big bore handgun cartridges have is the greater diameter of their bullets. Most savy shooters realize that true rifle cartridges are ballistically superior to revolver cartridges fired in rifles.
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Well, without fiddling with quotes to distort the message, there be nothing wrong with .44 mag in a light & handy rifle for dumping big critters inside 80 yds. Ye don't have to load 'em very hot either when using 300+ gr hardcast boolits. Launch 'em at 1500 fps and place 'em right & success will be enhanced greatly.

As for 12 ga slugs, most factory offerings are still using Foster type hollow based projectiles which are at best pretty piss poor on big critters The 12 bore truely comes into bear stopping power with Fosbery type Paradox cast boolits of proper weight to bore ratio for big game from a rifled gun. IE: 750-1000 gr depending on rifling twist for a given load at desired speeds.

No critter in our neck of the woods will get far with a well placed shot with a 12 bore in close range. If the critter doe's not see the hunter before, and after the shot, ye got far less worries on a lost animal with most any gun & load that's suitable fer the job. Shoot 'em in tight & place the boolit right.
 
emerson said:
A mares leg with full stock and a 14” or other short barreled shotgun with full stock are how these things are done by most now. I’ve had both, and have no faith in a 2 handed firearm that cannot be shouldered.
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My thoughts exactly.
I've built dozens of 870 pistol grip guns for guys that had to have them and have yet to see anyone who could use one accurately.
My experience with mares leg carbines is pretty much the same
If you are going to take a bad critter off someone's back its best not to shoot the person being mauled.
Or if that's what you got in your hands put the muzzle upside the bad critter and let fly,which in that instance doesn't matter if it's a mares leg or a 26 inch barrel Weatherby
 
SHELL SHUCKER said:
Well, without fiddling with quotes to distort the message, there be nothing wrong with .44 mag in a light & handy rifle for dumping big critters inside 80 yds. Ye don't have to load 'em very hot either when using 300+ gr hardcast boolits. Launch 'em at 1500 fps and place 'em right & success will be enhanced greatly.

As for 12 ga slugs, most factory offerings are still using Foster type hollow based projectiles which are at best pretty piss poor on big critters The 12 bore truely comes into bear stopping power with Fosbery type Paradox cast boolits of proper weight to bore ratio for big game from a rifled gun. IE: 750-1000 gr depending on rifling twist for a given load at desired speeds.

No critter in our neck of the woods will get far with a well placed shot with a 12 bore in close range. If the critter doe's not see the hunter before, and after the shot, ye got far less worries on a lost animal with most any gun & load that's suitable fer the job. Shoot 'em in tight & place the boolit right.
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Thanks....
 
SuperCub said:
Don't ignore him!! ......... Kinda like a Slinky, he's fun to play with. :)
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I'm gettin' too old for that sort of play... too busy debating with people that actually know what they are talking about... when the line of reality is razor thin, that is fun... not trying to convince a faceless digital entity that a little green frog ain't a dump truck.
 
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