I hate shotguns ....... and my new 870

[jory]

Pull the red-dot off and get rid of the rail, use the bead sight and practice. A bead sight isn’t “tacticool” it’s just “tactical” on a shotgun... A red dot is only good for slug hunting.

If you want a real tactical shotgun look at how the military sets them up. Basic as possible because... it’s a shotgun!

What? A red dot on a shotgun has the same benefits to a red dot on a carbine or a pistol; fast sight acquisition, ease of shooting with both eyes open, the ability to acquire an effective point of aim while in odd positions, etc. A bead sight alone is the last thing I want to do when i'm trying to accurately put a round down range. The lack of ability to align your POA on the horizontal plane against any fixed point on your gun, or align the vertical plane any other way but hoping your cheek weld is perfectly in line is not something I enjoy on a shotgun. Believe it or not, shotguns can put a tight group of 00 buck where you want it (ammo dependant, of course) at an impressive range if you do your part behind it; IE- not using a bead sight.

Anyone who thinks a shotgun is just a hose spraying lead in a general direction needs to hit the range again.

For the record, I'd take a carbine over a shotgun 99% of the time.

 

[JACKSMYDOG]

I'm rarely in this forum (tactical shotguns) but I take a peek in here once in a while. I am sincerely puzzled by the thread starter, and the OP's goals. Build-up an 870 Express with a ton of add-ons then not shoot it? Yes, it would be a somewhat intimidating-looking wall hanger, just a massive departure from how I see/use shotguns myself. Were I being asked for advice on the matter, I'd say slow down...strip the gun down to the essentials...shoot it a WHOLE lot...then decide what add-ons make the most sense. Not carrying? Forget the sling. Not shooting slugs? Lose the optics. No likelihood of being in a gun battle? Lose the shell carrier.

Goes without saying, but I'll say it anyway~in all but a few cases/applications (slugs+hunting) you kind of point shotguns..not aim them. Getting good/fast at loading, shouldering, pointing and getting a shot-off will not be an easier task without extra weight and clunky add-ons. I've never been in the situation of having to defend myself with a firearm (and hope I never do) but do have strong sense of how fast I can load/shoot, and how likely I am to hit my targets. Over 3 decades of shooting clays, and dozens of days hunting with them certainly plays into that. I might add, when you buy a shotgun and shoot it allot, you not only get better...but the gun itself changes personalities a bit. Runs smoother, feels lighter (=muscle memory?) you notice recoil less, etc. In other words, an untouched....uncessarily-heavy/bulky shotgun you don't have any experience shooting will not be a huge asset if the chips are down. At least, I can't imagine it would be.

Shotguns are a blast, for everything they are...and for what they're not. They do a great job of rearranging close range targets, so at least buy a case of target loads..round-up some reactive targets, and get to know that thing. I often can't go a week without shooting one shotgun or another. I love almost everything about them. Current favorite fun gun is a Mossberg 500 Persuader, 7+1, parkerized, bead sight, and nothing else. Contemplating a decent light for it...but I've been contemplating a light on a shotgun for over 10 years and still haven't put one on. lol

As for add-ons/what I'd do with that gun? (not that anyone cares) Upgrade the extractor, polish the chamber, lose the shell carrier and optic, thread the barrel for choke tubes, and shoot the heck out of it. Maybe consider shooting some clays, a discipline like skeet where you need to be good at shooting while swinging, following-through, etc. Unlikely to score well with a short barrel shotgun and you experience level, but it would be fun. Might have more success with trap. I'd suggest a standard buttstock and something like a Surefire forend if budget allows...but those come from not being a huge fan of the MagPul stuff.

I like 870s, and have had a number of them over the years. Including an 870P (all stock/no add-ons) I like them, they're reliable and super easy to work on. I hope you take these comments in the spirit they were offered.

Cheers!

All taken as good advice, thank you.

I do not hunt, no need for chokes. My shotguns are strictly a defensive gun, and really only get slugs. At that, not even my first choice for a defensive gun, just kinda fell into them.

This gun really has no purpose at this point, other than maybe 2-gun down the road. I'm not a fan of shotguns, and prefer carbine/pistol for any 2-gun games. This is mostly a wall hanger and conversation piece for the gun room.

 

[JACKSMYDOG]

A standard slug barreled 870 would be more than adequate as a double duty hunting/home defense gun without all the tupperware and psychedelic sight add ons!!

I do not need a double duty gun, I do not hunt.

 

[JACKSMYDOG]

For all the "drop the sight" folk, thank you for the input. I am colour blind, and have extreme difficulty seeing some things in less than ideal lighting. I am very much dependent on tritium, red dots or illuminated sights. I can use base iron sights sometimes, but not always, so everything I build gets sight upgrade to reduce my acquisition time.

 

[jory]

For all the "drop the sight" folk, thank you for the input. I am colour blind, and have extreme difficulty seeing some things in less than ideal lighting. I am very much dependent on tritium, red dots or illuminated sights. I can use base iron sights sometimes, but not always, so everything I build gets sight upgrade to reduce my acquisition time.

Sounds like a light would be another thing to look into if you have difficult seeing in "less than ideal" lighting.

 

[geologist]

 

[Butcherbill]

Sounds like a light would be another thing to look into if you have difficult seeing in "less than ideal" lighting.

Yes, especially since it’s a defensive shotgun. A light is a must for identifying anything that goes bump in the night. I have a 14” barrel on this one now and hunt grouse with it so I remove the light while hunting but if it’s back in camp or at home the light is on and batteries are charged.

 

[BeaverMeat]

What? A red dot on a shotgun has the same benefits to a red dot on a carbine or a pistol; fast sight acquisition, ease of shooting with both eyes open, the ability to acquire an effective point of aim while in odd positions, etc. A bead sight alone is the last thing I want to do when i'm trying to accurately put a round down range. The lack of ability to align your POA on the horizontal plane against any fixed point on your gun, or align the vertical plane any other way but hoping your cheek weld is perfectly in line is not something I enjoy on a shotgun. Believe it or not, shotguns can put a tight group of 00 buck where you want it (ammo dependant, of course) at an impressive range if you do your part behind it; IE- not using a bead sight.

Anyone who thinks a shotgun is just a hose spraying lead in a general direction needs to hit the range again.

For the record, I'd take a carbine over a shotgun 99% of the time.

That’s my point. A shotgun isn’t a rifle/carbine. Use a shotgun like a shotgun.

If you absolutely need better accuracy with shot, using rifle sights or a ghost rings are accurate enough. RDS is overkill with shot. Slugs are a different story.

A bead is fast if you take the time to learn how to uses it... but, we live in a world of instant satisfaction where people would rather spend money on bolt-on proficiency.

... but it’s all subjective to personal preference. I like my shotguns simple and effective.

For my defensive “Bush” shotgun I use a 870P with 14” mod choke barrel with XS express sights. No fancy stocks or side saddle. Just a synthetic Speedfeed sport stock and older synthetic police forearm. Sleek and effective. Nothing to worry about, nothing to hang up on your clothing or gear.

Only thing that remains unsolved is retention.

 

[TacticalTeacher]

All kinds of great learning and suggestions here.... keep them coming!

Cheers, Barney

Adversity Into Advantage!!

 

[jory]

That’s my point. A shotgun isn’t a rifle/carbine. Use a shotgun like a shotgun.

If you absolutely need better accuracy with shot, using rifle sights or a ghost rings are accurate enough. RDS is overkill with shot. Slugs are a different story.

A bead is fast if you take the time to learn how to uses it... but, we live in a world of instant satisfaction where people would rather spend money on bolt-on proficiency.

... but it’s all subjective to personal preference. I like my shotguns simple and effective.

For my defensive “Bush” shotgun I use a 870P with 14” mod choke barrel with XS express sights. No fancy stocks or side saddle. Just a synthetic Speedfeed sport stock and older synthetic police forearm. Sleek and effective. Nothing to worry about, nothing to hang up on your clothing or gear.

Only thing that remains unsolved is retention.

What I was getting at is that a shotgun can be used for more than just spraying a general area with lead like some people seem to think they do. But to do that responsibly and accurately, I think that something more substantial than a bead sight is necessary because of the obvious physical deficiencies of the sighting "system" itself. Given that there's no precise way to index windage or elevation of the sights in relationship to your sight picture, I see bead sights as something useless past a very short distance, unless your goal is to just spray a general area and hope something connects (trap shooting or game birds, etc) I understand that there's a degree of accuracy required for that too, and that some people can shoot very well with a bead, but i'm talking about a different kind of shooting and ammunition here.

Rifle sights or ghost rings are miles ahead of a bead, but when you bring a red dot into the mix I still think it's superior for the same reasons I think a red dot is superior to irons on a carbine. It's not about bolt on proficiency, it's about adapting when something comes along that works better than something else, even if it's some newfangled contraption that wasn't around back in the day when guys were shooting 600m+ with irons. I don't think there's anything overkill about allowing advancements in technology to make things more efficient, and if your fundamentals aren't there to begin with then a RDS isn't going to make you a better shooter anyway. I don't think an RDS is overkill for buckshot; I think with proper ammo selection that you can pattern 00 to a very useful group at a range that might surprise many. With an RDS I can take that tight pattern and put it where I want very quickly, with both eyes open, and from odd angles that I couldn't achieve a proper sight picture from with traditional iron sights; the same reasons I run a dot on my carbine.

 

[Butcherbill]

Rifle sights or ghost rings are miles ahead of a bead, but when you bring a red dot into the mix I still think it's superior for the same reasons I think a red dot is superior to irons on a carbine. It's not about bolt on proficiency, it's about adapting when something comes along that works better than something else, even if it's some newfangled contraption that wasn't around back in the day when guys were shooting 600m+ with irons. I don't think there's anything overkill about allowing advancements in technology to make things more efficient, and if your fundamentals aren't there to begin with then a RDS isn't going to make you a better shooter anyway. I don't think an RDS is overkill for buckshot; I think with proper ammo selection that you can pattern 00 to a very useful group at a range that might surprise many. With an RDS I can take that tight pattern and put it where I want very quickly, with both eyes open, and from odd angles that I couldn't achieve a proper sight picture from with traditional iron sights; the same reasons I run a dot on my carbine.

I agree with you a 100%, I have a trs25 on my mag fed grizzly because the 14” nea barrel I put on it has no front sight post or bead and poa vs poi of the shot pattern is real high. The red dot allows me to have an accurate aim point and adjust where I want my shot patten to hit in relation to my aim point. This is a pattern from my grizzly, point of aim is on the head of the “grouse” lol. Top target is 20y bottom is 15y, it’s quick and accurate and so far deadly on grouse out to 30y. As you can see in the last pic there are no pellets in the meat, a red dot with the right choke and any size of shot can be plenty accurate.

I have shot bead, ghost rings, fibre optic rifle sights and red dot on a shotgun. F/o rifle sights are my favourite but the rds is just as quick to use for me, it’s just bigger and relies on batteries. I prefer the simplicity of a f/o rifle sight but they all have their place depending on the use of the shotgun.

The weak link I’m my equation is the chokes, the saiga adaptor on my nea barrel uses Win chokes and in the pic a full choke. I’m getting a similar pattern at 25y and 40y with a mod Rem choke and 20” barrel out of an 870 as I am with the 14” and full choke at 15y and 20y, which is why I use my express more while grouse hunting. But the grizzly is fun to pull out use, it’s just plain fun and not sitting around at home collecting dust. I hate safe queens, guns need a job.

 

[.22LRGUY]

All taken as good advice, thank you.

I do not hunt, no need for chokes. My shotguns are strictly a defensive gun, and really only get slugs. At that, not even my first choice for a defensive gun, just kinda fell into them.

This gun really has no purpose at this point, other than maybe 2-gun down the road. I'm not a fan of shotguns, and prefer carbine/pistol for any 2-gun games. This is mostly a wall hanger and conversation piece for the gun room.

Hey JMD~I'll let others chime-in on this, but my understanding is that for a defensive gun (not wildlife) you're better off with 00 Buck vs. slugs. Pretty sure it's what LE/military use, anyone with first-hand experience care to chime in? I've certainly read accounts of 590s in combat, if memory serves..no slugs used. As for chokes, maybe it's your experience level with shotguns...but unlike rifles, you change the effectiveness/range/pattern using choke tubes, whether you hunt or not. You don't need/want them with slug use, but as soon as there are multiple projectiles with every pull of the trigger, the barrel's choke plays into the end result. Yours is most likely NO choke (=CYL, or cylinder bore) so knowing how that patterns plays into it's effectiveness. True, the smaller the shot size...the more a tighter choke impacts the patterns. Still, choke tubes are something to consider if you're wanting that level of control. Hunters know (or should) to pattern their guns before hunting. It's the only way to guess how many pellets of a given size are likely to hit a target OF a given size at a given distance. Leave that to chance, and you're rolling the dice. I proved this to someone a year or so back, we set-up a gatorade bottle at about 30' away, CYL bore shotgun, 20" barrel, 00 Buck. 3 shots/zero hits. lol Just too open a pattern, even at that distance. Granted, small target...but you get my meaning. I'd missed a few groundhogs using 00 buck at about that distance, decided to pattern the gun. After the gatorade bottle test, out came a pc. of cardboard to see what was happening. I switched to #4 shot.

A wallhanger/conversation piece~lots of merit in that I suppose, but not being fairly proficient with it sort of limits how effective a defensive tool it might be if required. I can barely go a week without feeling the recoil of a shotgun, or rearranging various household items. (if not shooting clays that is )

 

[Butcherbill]

Depending on the shotgun barrel and brand of slug you will get varying degrees of accuracy out of a cylinder bore, shooting slugs through a fixed or screw in choke often improves accuracy. Other times the open cylinder garners the best results, just like with shot you just have to try and see what works best in that particular shotgun.

 

[Mastiffguy]

There is a place in Oshawa Ontario
Gunworx.ca they do/have alot of 870s and tin coating and stuff there

 

[jory]

Hey JMD~I'll let others chime-in on this, but my understanding is that for a defensive gun (not wildlife) you're better off with 00 Buck vs. slugs. Pretty sure it's what LE/military use, anyone with first-hand experience care to chime in? I've certainly read accounts of 590s in combat, if memory serves..no slugs used.

As far as slugs go, the only reason I could see a mil/LEO using a slug is in the event that god hates them, (or poor budget) so they're stuck with a shotgun instead of a rifle and need to make a shot that exceeds the range that their buckshot acceptably/efficiently patterns at out of their gun for where they need that lead to go. In that case, there'd be a slug changeover performed, and a silent thank you said to whoever decided to equip their gun with something more than a bead sight.

I can't comment on what the military runs as far as ammunition goes, but I assume 00 buck, and I could see slugs being used for breaching. Specialized rounds exist for that, but I think that's probably more for domestic (think ERT/SWAT) guys who care about not maiming what's on the other side of the door. From what I understand LEO now uses 00 instead of #4 like they used to, but I could be wrong. I'm not even sure what the mandate would be right now given the change over from shotguns to carbines in cruisers.

 

[870P]

Dot or holographic sights have the advantage of being highly visible in almost any lighting conditions and backgrounds, unlike irons - even fibre optic or Tritium equipped ones.

 

[BeaverMeat]

What I was getting at is that a shotgun can be used for more than just spraying a general area with lead like some people seem to think they do. But to do that responsibly and accurately, I think that something more substantial than a bead sight is necessary because of the obvious physical deficiencies of the sighting "system" itself. Given that there's no precise way to index windage or elevation of the sights in relationship to your sight picture, I see bead sights as something useless past a very short distance, unless your goal is to just spray a general area and hope something connects (trap shooting or game birds, etc) I understand that there's a degree of accuracy required for that too, and that some people can shoot very well with a bead, but i'm talking about a different kind of shooting and ammunition here.

Rifle sights or ghost rings are miles ahead of a bead, but when you bring a red dot into the mix I still think it's superior for the same reasons I think a red dot is superior to irons on a carbine. It's not about bolt on proficiency, it's about adapting when something comes along that works better than something else, even if it's some newfangled contraption that wasn't around back in the day when guys were shooting 600m+ with irons. I don't think there's anything overkill about allowing advancements in technology to make things more efficient, and if your fundamentals aren't there to begin with then a RDS isn't going to make you a better shooter anyway. I don't think an RDS is overkill for buckshot; I think with proper ammo selection that you can pattern 00 to a very useful group at a range that might surprise many. With an RDS I can take that tight pattern and put it where I want very quickly, with both eyes open, and from odd angles that I couldn't achieve a proper sight picture from with traditional iron sights; the same reasons I run a dot on my carbine.

Why arn’t rifles sights or red dots used for trap or skeet? We’re talking a 50 yard gun here. If you can’t hit anything within 50 yards with a bead sighted shotgun... I guess you need the add-ons.

 

[Butcherbill]

Why arn’t rifles sights or red dots used for trap or skeet? We’re talking a 50 yard gun here. If you can’t hit anything within 50 yards with a bead sighted shotgun... I guess you need the add-ons.

Likely the purists couldn’t stomach someone with something other than a break action actually showing up and shooting clays with a black shotgun, it might throw off their scorecard.

 

[jory]

Why arn’t rifles sights or red dots used for trap or skeet? We’re talking a 50 yard gun here. If you can’t hit anything within 50 yards with a bead sighted shotgun... I guess you need the add-ons.

Apples or oranges. You can’t compare a defence/combat shotgun with the matching choice of ammunition to a long barrel shotgun shooting target loads.

 

[mudgunner49]

As far as slugs go, the only reason I could see a mil/LEO using a slug is in the event that god hates them, (or poor budget) so they're stuck with a shotgun instead of a rifle and need to make a shot that exceeds the range that their buckshot acceptably/efficiently patterns at out of their gun for where they need that lead to go. In that case, there'd be a slug changeover performed, and a silent thank you said to whoever decided to equip their gun with something more than a bead sight.

I can't comment on what the military runs as far as ammunition goes, but I assume 00 buck, and I could see slugs being used for breaching. Specialized rounds exist for that, but I think that's probably more for domestic (think ERT/SWAT) guys who care about not maiming what's on the other side of the door. From what I understand LEO now uses 00 instead of #4 like they used to, but I could be wrong. I'm not even sure what the mandate would be right now given the change over from shotguns to carbines in cruisers.

You've obviously never done roadblock duty and thought about the possibility of having to shoot into, or try to stop, a vehicle. Patrol carbine, even using barrier blind ammo, sucks as does buckshot. Slugs, not so much...