Another Creedmoor thread: is this the most sales for a caliber?

cody c

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I was talking to my retired neighbor yesterday, he had been pondering selling his T.C. 7mm-08 and had been thinking about another Tikka. He's had a few, shoots coyotes with a .204 T3 lite and loves them. Anyways he was at a small older gunship in the city and asked if they had a 6.5CM to look at. They said they didn't and had a hard time keeping them on the shelf. He was looking at sorting out a cousins gun that wouldn't shoot and the gentleman said "actually wait a minute" and went to the back, an order had just come in and one T3X SS tikka in 6.5CM had just gotten in the door, they hadn't opened the pallet yet but he got it out and had a look.

After pondering it, leaving without (his wife said he turned the truck on and off a few times) he went back and got it. I'm sure if he hadn't it would be sold by now. I know a few others who have also purchased one.

We all know that the 6.5CM is a bit of a fad and inherently very accurate by reputation, but it is also selling a lot of rifles. I'm sure more X-bolts and Tikkas have been sold then we probably realize.

Do you guys think this caliber is going to be one of the biggest sellers of all time? Perhaps some of the older gentlemen can comment if they remember a fad that sold more of a certain caliber
 
The most popular caliber of all time will likely be the 22 rim fire followed by the.308" caliber and .224". The 6.5 has a long way to go to catch up with even the .277" and 7mm calibers.
 
Caliber is 6.5mm.
Cartridge is 6.5 Creedmoor.
Kind of like how magazine and clip get mixed up on here all the time lol.
 
I recall reading a few articles about the US army testing and adopting 6.5 Creedmoor. Its a great round. Would be nice of they did. Manufacturers would probably get on board and start producing some cheaper bulk 6.5 ammo to plink with.
 
I recall reading a few articles about the US army testing and adopting 6.5 Creedmoor. Its a great round. Would be nice of they did. Manufacturers would probably get on board and start producing some cheaper bulk 6.5 ammo to plink with.

The US Military has adopted the 6.5 Creedmoor as their Military round, and for the past 3 years the 6.5CM is the most popular cartridge on the planet, its not a fad thats going away anytime soon and for good reason, it just plain works, Hornady has done an awesome job of marketing the cartridge but on top that they support their cartridges with REASONABLY PRICED very accurate ammo, with excellent hunting bullets as well as target bullets that are READILY AVAILABLE.......some of these other companies should pull their heads out of their asses and take notice.

Weatherby for example in October of 2015 announces the 6.5-300 Wby....I was so excited I ordered a new rifle that very day, 13 months later I received the rifle and no ammunition for another 2 months ?
 
Well we live in some interesting times..

I consider the 6.5 CM to be a bit of a repeat of the 22-250. Same advantages. Very accurate and better performance than the mainstay in the market. However, like the 22-250 it's harder on barrels and barrel life is noticeably shortened. Many claim this isn't an issue as the amount of rounds before the barrel is shot will be years under frequent/hard use. What I saw with the 22-250 were shooters less than impressed with having a significantly shorter barrel life. Many I know, went back to their previous favourite cartridges. Again, the 22-250 is a great, fun cartridge.

So what's different this time around? At first glance it seems to be the same trad offs of yesteryear wonder rounds. Less recoil, better ballistics than the 308. Higher velocity in a smaller bullet, but with better ballistics so you get better performance, especially for long range shooters. What's not to like about that? Barrel life is around 2500 to 3000 rounds depending on your barrel and how you shoot (long strings, or slow and lots of cool down). Versus 5000 for the 308. I've heard of 6.5 CM rifles starting to lose accuracy at 1500 rounds while others get 2500+. Again it depends. But either way the 308 gets double or more life out of the barrel. So far this is nothing new.

So far my beginning sentence seems misleading as there is nothing new here. We've seen this before. So what is interesting this time around? Well, the barrels. We are getting these round counts using conventional barrels. Barrels in the last while have come a long way. It used to be you had the option of Chrome lined or regular and Stainless steel. With Chrome lined being long use machine gun type barrels, regular being your normal accurate factory barrel and SS being for match type rifles. Well, things started to change. FN for instance has a bolt action that the FBI adopted which has a sub .5 moa Chrome lined barrel. LMT chrome lined barrels for their MWS AR308 rifles had Mike rock chrome lined barrels which many were getting sub MOA out of. However it didn't stop there.. Generally the old rules still applied. Then along came nitride treatment (Liquid Salt Bath Ferritic Nitrocarburizing Non-Cyanide Bath). This allowed the hardening of the barrel material without adding material. So now you could have the benefits of chrome lining but retain the Stainless Steel benefits. Or 4150 chrome molly steel with the benefits of chrome lining, but not the loss of accuracy and superior element/rust protection to Stainless steel. These barrel types are now available to most of us and aren't just a well known secret anymore.

I think most of us can see where I'm going with this. These new barrel processes can give the barrel life of a 6.5 CM to respectable levels. Yes, the non hard on barrel cartridges also benefit. In this case it makes a round that I would have avoided, one that I'm wanting to try out. This change in barrels is the main difference this time around.

A couple of other points I want to touch on. The accuracy.. Is the 6.5 CM inherently more accurate? It no doubt seems that way, but I don't believe it is. What I suspect we are seeing is a newer cartridge with much narrower parameters by the manufacturers. Look at it this way, the 308 has been around for ages. First 1:12 barrels were the norm for 155 etc rounds. 1:10 became popular for 150 accuracy rounds and the longer bullets. So that became more of a target shooters twist rate. Today the 1:11 , 1:11.25 is the twist rate for most military/police rifles and is ideal for the 155, 167-178 rounds. It's my personal favourite for 308 as I mostly shoot in those ranges and it works perfectly with the current off the shelf match ammo. The other two twists seem to have a lot more variation with which rounds they prefer and you generally are reloading if you want excellent accuracy. Along with twist rates there have been barrel lengths and powders... In short there are a lot of variables with the 308. Now with the 6.5 CM, you have the standard 1:8 twist rate and ammo designed for both that twist rate and the current standard barrel choices of 22-24". The ammo, barrels and twist rate are currently tailored for each other. So right now, you can go pick up some Hornady 139-143 match ammo and with a good rifle/barrel you will get exceptional accuracy. Is this a factor of the round itself or just much less variables to contend with? I believe it's predominantly the narrowing of the variables which is giving this round a lot of fanfare for accuracy. Don't get me wrong it's a good round and inherently accurate but not really anymore so than a 308. At least not until after 800 yards.

You will also see many argue that the new wonder round is looked at to be adopted by the US military. Many on here won't like what I post next. This does make sense as the bolt action in sub 300 WM calibres is completely obsolete in both military and police use today. The semi auto, predominantly an AR10/AR308 rifle has made the bolt action DM rifle obsolete. The bolt action is still relevant for 1000+ cartridges such as 300 WM, 338 LM and 50 BMG. But in 30 cal or 20 cal, the AR rules the day. Semi auto and they can shoot exceptionally well. So back to the 6.5 CM. Less recoil, better BC, and longer range accuracy. Plus it's a simple barrel swap in an AR308 rifle. Pretty much a perfect match.

My current Stag 10 build utilizes a nitride barrel but in 308. My next one will be a nitride 6.5 CM barrel. Companies such as Fulton/Criterion and now Maple Ridge armories offer these barrels for sale as fairly standard options. In my opinion this makes the 6.5 CM an exciting cartridge and one that I am wanting to try out. But... only with the accompanying technology to mitigate it's weaknesses. Which brings me to the bolt action offerings. The AR barrel systems offer easy swaps by the end user and currently a lot more options for nitride or precision chrome lining (FUlton/Criterion) than the bolt action counterparts. With the Stag 10 you can build your own. I would personally avoid buying a traditional off the shelf accuracy rifle in 6.5 CM at this time. At least until they come with nitride barrels. Or factor in changing your barrel sooner than you're probably used to.
 
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Wow lots of insightful thoughts from a couple of you. I'll have to ponder that for a bit.

To clarify, I don't consider myself a 6.5CM fanboy or anything, I have a short action build that will either become a 260 or 6.5CM, but have no real horse in the race.

Thanks for addressing my use of the term cartridge vs caliber, I'll try and be more diligent in the future ��
 
We all know that the 6.5CM is a bit of a fad and inherently very accurate by reputation, but it is also selling a lot of rifles. I'm sure more X-bolts and Tikkas have been sold then we probably realize.

Do you guys think this caliber is going to be one of the biggest sellers of all time? Perhaps some of the older gentlemen can comment if they remember a fad that sold more of a certain caliber
I’d say 6.5CM is long past being a fad now. And... Since some of the ‘older gentlemen’ have already helped you immensely with your technical terminology :p ... I’ll just leave you this quote from the owner of one of the larger independent gun stores in the USA-

Food for thought:

We sell a bunch of rifles on an annual basis, both in store and online. If you eliminate the black rifle numbers (223/5.56), the Creedmoor outsold any other centerfire rifle cartridge 8 to 1. That’s a huge margin! And that’s from a five digit sample size. Doesn’t matter where they’re shipping, the Creedmoor is king of the hill.

Either the Creedmoor has sold out in the shops you’re visiting or the shops aren’t taking advantage of market trends.
 
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6.5cm and 260rem are pretty equal, flip a coin.

Ballistically yes. Everywhere else, no. This is the difference, but there are a bunch of people that can’t wrap their heads around that. It’s getting so old. This isn’t a passing fad, in fact a friend of mine was just in Africa and while touring a gun shop the owner said the same thing as the OP. They can’t keep them on the shelves there.
 
Ballistically yes. Everywhere else, no. This is the difference, but there are a bunch of people that can’t wrap their heads around that. It’s getting so old. This isn’t a passing fad, in fact a friend of mine was just in Africa and while touring a gun shop the owner said the same thing as the OP. They can’t keep them on the shelves there.

x2 ......... If I had to replace all my BG rifles right now, I'd simply buy a 6.5CM and a 30-06, both sporters. I've got too much invested in others to go down the 6.5 road right now.
 
Weatherby for example in October of 2015 announces the 6.5-300 Wby....I was so excited I ordered a new rifle that very day, 13 months later I received the rifle and no ammunition for another 2 months ?

They've caught up to the demand a little bit at this point. I'm seriously considering moving my 6.5 CM in favor of a 6.5-300 Vanguard Accuguard. However, I wouldn't recommend sane people make the same move. The 6.5 CM is a great caliber. It's been kind of hilarious to watch everything come after the 6.5 CM just sort of flounder.
 
It's a popular caliber, now, which by extension will make it one of the best selling dies. Always a gauge of popularity is brass, dies, component sales.

Personally, I have another 6.5, and have no intention switching to 6.5 creedmore.

My Fudd version, black rifle is a Mini in 6.8. Accurate and powerful enough to hunt smallish big game within the limitations of the platform and caliber. If i went to a NR AR it would probably be a CM. Have a personal history and apathy towards 308.

One other promising development with the 6.5cm will be projectile development for 6.5. That will help my 6.5 caliber. CM is not a wonder gun, any more than any one caliber can be. What i would like to see is development of higher weight hunting bullets. Presently you choose between old style round nose 160 military bullets designed for 6.5x55, or limit yourself to around 140 for hunting bullets.
 
6.5 calibre is a great overall high ballistic coefficient round. The Swiss did it right with the 6.5x55 Swede. You don't need any wildcatting....unless it's your hobby and you have nothing else better to do with your money....

I'm a 260 Rem fan - very light carbine in a stainless Rem 7. A huge hammer in a small, lightweight, super accurate bolt gun.
 
I dunno about most sales for a caliber (cartridge?) But my local CT has stacks of 6.5 Creedmoor ammo for sale at fairly reasonable prices. If 6.5 Creedmoor ammo has made it into the Canadian Tire ammo case then I guess you can say the cartridge is here to stay.
 
I’m a 308 and 223 fanboy, been that way for years .....UNTIL I began shooting PAST 800m with my 308 launching 155 grain Amax booolits. For the past 7 years, I’ve experimented with 6.5mm fun in .260 Remmy for now. All I can say is: it’s been a great learning journey and I’m looking forward to learning more.

No doubt the 6.5 CM is likely a better magazine tolerant cartridge (steeper shoulders, deeper booolit seating) so that one can seat their booolits to kiss the lands in the barrel. But, BIG but, I’m from the Service Conditions world where everything must feed from a magazine for every booolit and situation and competition course of fire, so the 6.5 CM will do the same thing a 260 will do (for me).

So does the 6.5 CM do it? It’s gotta work for you and all your game(s), your Reloading budget, your current Reloading setup/situation, Reloading tools, components availability, Rifle choices be they factory or custom cut.....

Right now I’ve got a very tight inventory of CF rifles, all SA, but all 308 or 260....easy to switch barrels, same boltface diameter of 0.473” like many of my students, I’ve got ADD, or Rifle Attantion Disorder, or something like that. With those two narrowed caliber, I have to streamline and focus on booolits that all my 260 or 308 barrels SEEM to like, especially for hunting or rectangular range shooting.

Get what works for you! And I am grateful we have all these choices, we are blessed!

Cheers, Barney


:wave:
 
The 6.5 Creedmoor's main advantage is being able to seat long-for-caliber bullets out where they should be while using a standard length magazine. This gets the bullet out of the body of the case and increases accuracy. It is the main focus of recent cartridge developments.

That being said, I like the .260 as it has few shortcomings aside from the above.
 
All great points and agree. Only point I'd add is all the barrel improvements also apply to the .308 extending it's life even more as well.


Well we live in some interesting times..

I consider the 6.5 CM to be a bit of a repeat of the 22-250. Same advantages. Very accurate and better performance than the mainstay in the market. However, like the 22-250 it's harder on barrels and barrel life is noticeably shortened. Many claim this isn't an issue as the amount of rounds before the barrel is shot will be years under frequent/hard use. What I saw with the 22-250 were shooters less than impressed with having a significantly shorter barrel life. Many I know, went back to their previous favourite cartridges. Again, the 22-250 is a great, fun cartridge.

So what's different this time around? At first glance it seems to be the same trad offs of yesteryear wonder rounds. Less recoil, better ballistics than the 308. Higher velocity in a smaller bullet, but with better ballistics so you get better performance, especially for long range shooters. What's not to like about that? Barrel life is around 2500 to 3000 rounds depending on your barrel and how you shoot (long strings, or slow and lots of cool down). Versus 5000 for the 308. I've heard of 6.5 CM rifles starting to lose accuracy at 1500 rounds while others get 2500+. Again it depends. But either way the 308 gets double or more life out of the barrel. So far this is nothing new.

So far my beginning sentence seems misleading as there is nothing new here. We've seen this before. So what is interesting this time around? Well, the barrels. We are getting these round counts using conventional barrels. Barrels in the last while have come a long way. It used to be you had the option of Chrome lined or regular and Stainless steel. With Chrome lined being long use machine gun type barrels, regular being your normal accurate factory barrel and SS being for match type rifles. Well, things started to change. FN for instance has a bolt action that the FBI adopted which has a sub .5 moa Chrome lined barrel. LMT chrome lined barrels for their MWS AR308 rifles had Mike rock chrome lined barrels which many were getting sub MOA out of. However it didn't stop there.. Generally the old rules still applied. Then along came nitride treatment (Liquid Salt Bath Ferritic Nitrocarburizing Non-Cyanide Bath). This allowed the hardening of the barrel material without adding material. So now you could have the benefits of chrome lining but retain the Stainless Steel benefits. Or 4150 chrome molly steel with the benefits of chrome lining, but not the loss of accuracy and superior element/rust protection to Stainless steel. These barrel types are now available to most of us and aren't just a well known secret anymore.

I think most of us can see where I'm going with this. These new barrel processes can give the barrel life of a 6.5 CM to respectable levels. Yes, the non hard on barrel cartridges also benefit. In this case it makes a round that I would have avoided, one that I'm wanting to try out. This change in barrels is the main difference this time around.

A couple of other points I want to touch on. The accuracy.. Is the 6.5 CM inherently more accurate? It no doubt seems that way, but I don't believe it is. What I suspect we are seeing is a newer cartridge with much narrower parameters by the manufacturers. Look at it this way, the 308 has been around for ages. First 1:12 barrels were the norm for 155 etc rounds. 1:10 became popular for 150 accuracy rounds and the longer bullets. So that became more of a target shooters twist rate. Today the 1:11 , 1:11.25 is the twist rate for most military/police rifles and is ideal for the 155, 167-178 rounds. It's my personal favourite for 308 as I mostly shoot in those ranges and it works perfectly with the current off the shelf match ammo. The other two twists seem to have a lot more variation with which rounds they prefer and you generally are reloading if you want excellent accuracy. Along with twist rates there have been barrel lengths and powders... In short there are a lot of variables with the 308. Now with the 6.5 CM, you have the standard 1:8 twist rate and ammo designed for both that twist rate and the current standard barrel choices of 22-24". The ammo, barrels and twist rate are currently tailored for each other. So right now, you can go pick up some Hornady 139-143 match ammo and with a good rifle/barrel you will get exceptional accuracy. Is this a factor of the round itself or just much less variables to contend with? I believe it's predominantly the narrowing of the variables which is giving this round a lot of fanfare for accuracy. Don't get me wrong it's a good round and inherently accurate but not really anymore so than a 308. At least not until after 800 yards.

You will also see many argue that the new wonder round is looked at to be adopted by the US military. Many on here won't like what I post next. This does make sense as the bolt action in sub 300 WM calibres is completely obsolete in both military and police use today. The semi auto, predominantly an AR10/AR308 rifle has made the bolt action DM rifle obsolete. The bolt action is still relevant for 1000+ cartridges such as 300 WM, 338 LM and 50 BMG. But in 30 cal or 20 cal, the AR rules the day. Semi auto and they can shoot exceptionally well. So back to the 6.5 CM. Less recoil, better BC, and longer range accuracy. Plus it's a simple barrel swap in an AR308 rifle. Pretty much a perfect match.

My current Stag 10 build utilizes a nitride barrel but in 308. My next one will be a nitride 6.5 CM barrel. Companies such as Fulton/Criterion and now Maple Ridge armories offer these barrels for sale as fairly standard options. In my opinion this makes the 6.5 CM an exciting cartridge and one that I am wanting to try out. But... only with the accompanying technology to mitigate it's weaknesses. Which brings me to the bolt action offerings. The AR barrel systems offer easy swaps by the end user and currently a lot more options for nitride or precision chrome lining (FUlton/Criterion) than the bolt action counterparts. With the Stag 10 you can build your own. I would personally avoid buying a traditional off the shelf accuracy rifle in 6.5 CM at this time. At least until they come with nitride barrels. Or factor in changing your barrel sooner than you're probably used to.
 
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