Sherman wildcat cartridges and my 338

ruby76

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Rather than me recommending these great cartridges in other threads I’ll start this dedicated one. For a backgrounder and specific cartridge info best to have a look at this website.

https://shermanwildcatcartridges.com

About a year ago I stumbled upon Rich Sherman’s wildcats on another forum. I really like efficient cartridges having owned a 280AI for the last 20 years. I wanted to build a custom and started searching for something different. For my specific build I wanted a 338, and not a big case capacity heavy recoiling cartridge. Rich had designed several wildcats off a 270/280 case, similar to an ackley design but did it a bit better. He then moved on to a short action, based on a saum case. The newest kid on the block was a 338 cal, spec’ed around the 250 grain berger. Mine was one of the first couple chambered. I have since been playing with different powders and have hit 2859 fps with only 63 grains of powder. Now that is efficient.
 
Yeah those really seem to work good
Have a 6.5 Sherman its built on a 270 case, right now I am using R-26 and a 140 berger Hybrid. And getting 3305 Fps out of it.

Had them going faster but backed off a bit.
 
I’m constantly amazed what they can do. I had to back off just save my crappy RP brass. I’m working on getting the sherman headstamped brass now, will be able to push it then.
 
Me and Ruger-Ruger built ours at the same time. My 6.5 Sherman also shoots 140 Begers at 3339 fps out of a 28" Hart with N570. I also dropped my load one grain to save brass. With ADG brass out I am seriously thinking about trying a couple of the Sherman Shorts.
 
I'll wait until I see actual pressure data. Wildcat users (myself included) are notoriously optimistic about wildcat performance. - dan

You know that it will never happen, as the pressure is very high and confirming that would require explanations and assurances most in this circle would prefer to avoid. It's the same in Gibbs and Ackley circles.

My Wildcatter to English Translater converts "Very Efficient" to "Very High Pressure".

All that aside, in modern firearms, all that's being harmed are primer pockets, but having people crank up the pressure in their 6.5 Gibbs, 6.5-06 AI or 280 AI doesn't sell Sherman brass or firearms.
 
I have no idea what the pressure is running in my 6.5 Sherman. But I got 5 reloads on my brass. Hottest load was the 140 Berger at 3339 fps. THe 142 and 150 Matrix were moving along as well but don't remember the speeds. So just normal as far as looking for pressure. No marks on brass or hard bolt lift and went with starting loads from Rich and others with Sherman's. So to say the Sherman is running very high pressure, I'd say not overly high. Brass wouldn't last 5 firings if it was WAY over pressure. Even after 5 firings I can still use my brass but a few primer pockets are getting loose.
 
Case shape and shoulder angle have absolutely nothing to do with velocity achieved. Case capacity, pressure, pressure curve, barrel time, barrel length, are things which do influence velocity. Wildcatters like to pretend this isn't true. They also like to sit out in the pumpkin patch on Halloween; waiting for the Great Pumpkin to rise.
 
I posted about these SSM last year after reading about them on long-range hunting and accurate forums...

I agree with many here....unless there is actually laboratory pressure tests done and documented I am not buying the whole more fps with less powder and less pressure....

No such thing as a free lunch....
 
I posted about these SSM last year after reading about them on long-range hunting and accurate forums...

I agree with many here....unless there is actually laboratory pressure tests done and documented I am not buying the whole more fps with less powder and less pressure....

No such thing as a free lunch....

I don't have to be correct (no feelings hurt), and would welcome scientific tests that confirm or refute some of the age-old case design claims that:

- short and fat is "more efficient" (first defining "efficient") than long and skinny;
- certain shoulder angles are more efficient;
- certain neck lengths are more efficient;
- etc.

All we see are claimed loads and associated chronograph claims that "prove" a certain design as being more efficient.

Perhaps the main reason we don't see this is that no matter what is tested, those whose side is disproved will dismiss the test as not being valid for reasons A-Z.

There's still no reason however, why the Sherman Camp can't have an independent lab do some pressure tests......
 
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many many MANY years ago I had a rifle built in 340 gibbs on a 98 action. built by ron prop out of Lethbridge. that cartridge is very much the same idea as these ones. I killed everything with it. it loved the 225 grain bullets. very very accurate combo in a weak moment I sold it, to buy/ build something better. that cartridge was one of the best 338 rounds id ever used until the lapua came around. guy I sold it to still using it and has refused my offers to own it again
 
I don't have to be correct 9no feelings hurt), and would welcome scientific tests that confirm or refute some of the age-old case design claims that:

- short and fat is "more efficient" (first defining "efficient") than long and skinny;
- certain shoulder angles are more efficient;
- certain neck lengths are more efficient;
- etc.

All we see are claimed loads and associated chronograph claims that "prove" a certain design as being more efficient.

Perhaps the main reason we don't see this is that no matter what is tested, those whose side is disproved will dismiss the test as not being valid for reasons A-Z.

There's still no reason however, why the Sherman Camp can't have an independent lab do some pressure tests......

Especially when modern chambers and brass can be above safe pressures without showing obvious signs.....
 
I think it would be great if Rich would do some pressure tests. It would be very interesting and I'd be curious to know what kind of pressure I am running. Is mine running high pressure? Yeah I'm sure it is somewhat. But dangerously high, I don't think so. Any more pressure than my 6.5X47? It might be but like you guys said we need real testing done, or we are just guessing. Either way the full line of Sherman Wildcats has gotten a huge following. Don't think this was just by accident. They work as advertised.
 
I really do not see the appeal....

Obscure wildcat, expensive brass, all for what 75-100 fps?

For hunting a Rem 7mm Mag will fit most needs for 90% of hunting situations.

With the release of Hornady PRC cartridges with factory ammo, bulk brass available.....why bother??
 
Personally, I'm attracted to the Sherman designs because of the brass. If you like Hornady brass, then by all means, hop on the PRC/RCM bandwagon. I feel like a lot of my time goes into brass care and preparation. I appreciate quality brass that shows minimal growth and which I can load many times over. I despise getting a new lot of brass which results in wasting time components and barrel life to re-tune a load. It's for these reasons I'm attracted to AI and sherman designs.

With the current 'internal ballistics' knowledge base, it's relatively trivial to predict pressures for a given bullet in a given bore using a given case capacity of a given powder. No I don't mean exact peak pressures, but strain gauges are not highly precise either...

Some well known gun experts don't even need a computer to do this. Look up the 4:1 rule if you don't know what I'm referencing.

What I like about the Sherman designs is their ability to CONTAIN pressure. Lots of evidence of guys getting multiple loadings out of their brass while running ++P loads. Steep shoulders reduce the ability of brass to flow. Minimal body taper reduces bolt thrust and thus stress on the case head. Efficiency is not just measured in FPS.

Obscure wildcat? I don't agree. Reamers and dies are available - this isn't something you need to custom order with a blueprint.

Expensive brass? Since when is .270win brass expensive?

If ones goals are to shoot minute of moose and minute of deer, I politely suggest looking at what ammo is available at their local trading post.

I haven't 'drunk the koolaid' yet, but it's for these reasons I'm considering it. I trust someone will point me straight if my reasoning is ill founded.
 
Sharp shoulders have little efect on brass "flow" upon firing. They can keep brass from flowing when full-length sized or, at least help to push it back to where it came from. Body taper doesn't do anything to the case head either way. Once a case is able to adhere to the chamber walls enough to separate a case head, gripping better doesn't make any difference. Over the years, I've seen a bunch of wildcats and I have not seen any that did any more than their case capacity would suggest. A 308 Win AI will perform just like a 30/40 Krag when both are loaded to the same pressure.
 
Personally, I'm attracted to the Sherman designs because of the brass. If you like Hornady brass, then by all means, hop on the PRC/RCM bandwagon. I feel like a lot of my time goes into brass care and preparation. I appreciate quality brass that shows minimal growth and which I can load many times over. I despise getting a new lot of brass which results in wasting time components and barrel life to re-tune a load. It's for these reasons I'm attracted to AI and sherman designs.

With the current 'internal ballistics' knowledge base, it's relatively trivial to predict pressures for a given bullet in a given bore using a given case capacity of a given powder. No I don't mean exact peak pressures, but strain gauges are not highly precise either...

Some well known gun experts don't even need a computer to do this. Look up the 4:1 rule if you don't know what I'm referencing.

What I like about the Sherman designs is their ability to CONTAIN pressure. Lots of evidence of guys getting multiple loadings out of their brass while running ++P loads. Steep shoulders reduce the ability of brass to flow. Minimal body taper reduces bolt thrust and thus stress on the case head. Efficiency is not just measured in FPS.

Obscure wildcat? I don't agree. Reamers and dies are available - this isn't something you need to custom order with a blueprint.

Expensive brass? Since when is .270win brass expensive?

If ones goals are to shoot minute of moose and minute of deer, I politely suggest looking at what ammo is available at their local trading post.

I haven't 'drunk the koolaid' yet, but it's for these reasons I'm considering it. I trust someone will point me straight if my reasoning is ill founded.

You don't describe anything that the original Ackley wildcat versions didn't do. Or the RCBS improved versions, or the Gibbs improved versions. I've owned (and still own) versions of all of these. There is no magic shape, or shoulder angle, etc. Case capacity and brass strength, coupled with a well cut chamber rule. You can "cheat" that a bit with freebore, but there are drawbacks to that, too. So yeah, until I see pressure testing of the new super cartridge, I'll take all the claims with a grain of salt. Basically, seen this show before, and i know how it ends. - dan
 
Leeper - I think we can agree, brass flow during firing has more to do with sizing practices (i.e how closely the brass matches the chamber) than case shape. All things equal, there is most certainly a correlation between body taper and bolt thrust. I can't tell you how this affects primer pockets because I have not tested it. You claim reducing bolt thrust has no effect on the case head, but I'm wondering how you know that to be true?

Dan - Sure don't. Honestly the Huntington designs appeal the most to me. He didn't improve cases looking for FPS, he did so looking to improve the DESIGN, and this was my point. Better brass life. I don't understand where 'cheating' and 'magic' were implied. It doesn't take a rocket scientist (or a pressure test) to figure these 'published' Sherman loads are running 75k PSI plus. Individuals have long been generating as much pressure as their cases can hold - you don't need a wildcat for that. Some people still believe in 'fast barrels'. Others, who have measured it understand that tighter bores result in increased pressures, increased pressures yield increased velocity. The fact is; improved cases in improved chambers contain pressure better than tapered cases. I know it's not a very 'wildcatty' thing to do, but what I'm getting at is instead of saying 'hey my case didn't split, let's put more powder in', I'm saying 'look at the case life that is possible if one runs standard pressures in improved cases'. Maybe it's been a long time since someone has said that...
 
De-bunking long held beliefs isn't easy and in order to do so, one needs to have an open mind yet be critical where necessary. There are some things which are given to be "facts" which are really nothing more than suppositions. I'll try to explain.
First off, there do exist some facts. One fact is that the brass case is two things; it is a container for the powder charge and it is a gasket to contain the pressure generated by the ignition of the powder charge. These are facts. There is a point where case taper can have some effect on the amount of adhesion to the chamber wall and this is a fact. To what extent this actually affects bolt thrust is where we move away from facts and into fantasy.
Before I address the bolt thrust issue, I would like to take care of the issue of brass flow during firing and the effect of case shape on this. It's really pretty simple; brass does not flow during firing. It can stretch. It will change shape. It will change in dimension. It does not flow. Under normal circumstances in a solid, front-locking action, the case will expand, laterally, under pressure to seal the chamber. As this occurs the case will also shorten from both ends. As the pressure increases, the rear of the case will move back to contact the bolt face and the front will stay where it is. The brass will stretch to allow the base to contact the bolt and, depending on the pressure level, it will stay right there or it may spring back away from the bolt face as the pressure drops off, after the bullet leaves the barrel. If you wish, you can fire a factory load through any rifle, as long as it is a rigid front locker, and you will find the case to be shorter than it was before it was fired. Now if you reload and fire this same case, without sizing at all, you will find it will not change in length at all unless it didn't fully form to the chamber with the first firing. In this case, it might shorten up a little. The thing is, the shoulder angle is immaterial. The same thing happens or doesn't happen; the brass does not flow.
Now just a little about body taper and back thrust. First, it's important to understand there are factors involved other than body taper. Chamber smoothness, cleanliness, and the pressure generated, these are all factors and all have more effect than body taper. Body taper will affect back thrust only at pressures which are so low that there is very little back thrust. The pressure has to be so low that the case does not contact the chamber wall with significant force. I'm going to explain this further but, first, I have to go split some wood. We must have heat!
 
Okay. The wood is split and the stove is pumping out the heat. We heat with wood, exclusively so I get to get warm twice.
Now, back to the back thrust.
When the powder ignites and pressure starts to build, the bullet moves forward as the neck expands. In most cases, the neck probably expands until it contacts the neck of the chamber (but not always). This starts the seal (case as a gasket) as pressure builds, more of the case contacts the chamber wall, thinner portions first, until the entire surface of the case is contacting. Once contact is made and pressure builds further, the case will adhere to the chamber walls sufficiently that it cannot be moved rearward. The claim is that a case with less body taper (like the 308 Winchester) will grip the chamber with more force than will a case with more taper (like the 303 British, plenty-o-taper). Guess what? This is undoubtedly true. There are formulae and computer models which prove it (sort of) but here's the thing; once the case is gripping the walls with sufficient force that the head will serparate (if poorly supported), any more grip is meaningless. We know that a Lee Enfield, especially if it's loaded heavy, will separate cases just ahead of the web. If that well-tapered 303 case was not gripping the chamber wall, it would just slide back and the head would not come off. In a Lee Enfield fitted with a 7.62 barrel, exactly the same thing happens. Plainly, both cases are gripping the chamber wall with sufficient force to hold the brass enough that the head will separate. This is the first part of the explanation, now for the second.
The Lee Enfield separates case heads so well because, under high pressure, the bolt compresses and deflects while the receiver stretches. It is this attribute, by the way, which made the Lee Enfield such a fine battle rifle. You can force the bolt closed on a deformed case where there would be no chance of doing the same thing in a Mauser, for instance, and a Remington 700 would end up with the bolt handle on the ground.
On the other hand, that Remington 700 bolt, when the rifle is fired, deflects... hardly at all. Probably less than .001" under normal circumstances. So, any resistance to bolt thrust beyond .001" of deflection, doe not even come into play. I once did an experiment where I made up some chambered stubs (in 30/40 Krag) and split them on one side. I made three pieces. One was chambered to half depth (measuring down to the web of the case). One was chambered to 2/3 depth. The last one was chambered so that about .2", ahead of the web, was exposed. This is about where a case usually separates if it is going to. I made up a rod with a tee handle. The rod was about two inches longer than the chambered piece. I then stuck a case into the first stub and clamped it in the vise. I set up an indicator with the magnetic base mounted on the stub and the plunger against the case head. I then pushed on my tee handle to see if I could get the case head to deflect measurably. I could. In fact, it wasn't even all that hard to get the needle to move .002". Then to the depper chamber. I could still get the needle to move but I had to push harder. This made sense. There was less length of brass which could stretch and the exposed brass was thicker. The deepest chamber took a lot more effort but I was still able to move the needle .002". How much force? Well, I'm kind of old and won't be seen competing in any strongman competitions so I expect I might have been pushing a couple of hundred pounds. The brass would stretch this much then spring back. Now, given that the pressure contained by the brass is likely to be up around 15,000 lbs of thrust, a couple of hundred is a drop in the bucket. Add to this the fact that we have already establish that a tapered case will hold the chamber walls enough to allow the head to come right off, if unsupported, you can see why I don't believe case shape has any bearing on bol thrust. More after I eat supper.
 
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