Clarification needed please help! Clasification for colt 1851

mattcrossan

Member
Rating - 100%
16   0   0
Hi guys,

I have read the regs regarding antique firearms and also have read a few posts from forum members and I still am a little confused. Can someone please help give me a clear answers;

- Is an original Colt Navy 1851 considered:

1)restricted
2)non restricted
3) or not a firearm that needs to be licenced.

If it is 2 or 3, does that mean I can legally shoot a colt 1851 on private or crown land?

Thanks for your help.
 
According to RCMP rules if made before 1898, no licensing requirements are necessary

[h=2]Muzzleloaders made before 1898[/h]All black powder muzzleloaders made before 1898 are considered antique firearms. Antique firearms are exempt from the licence and registration requirements set out in the Firearms Act.
[h=2]Muzzleloaders made after 1898[/h]All matchlock, flintlock and wheel lock long guns are considered antiques no matter when they were made. Like older firearms of these types, they are exempt from the licence and registration requirements set out in the Firearms Act.
Percussion cap long guns and muzzle-loading black powder handguns made after 1898 are not considered antiques even if they are copies of an earlier antique model. Newer percussion cap long guns are classified as non-restricted firearms; newer handguns, including matchlock, wheel lock and flintlock handguns made after 1898, are classified as restricted if their barrel length is over 105 mm (about 4 inches), or prohibited if their barrel length is 105 mm or less.
It is important to note that there are a lot of reproduction firearms on the market. In addition, some firearms were made over a period of several years spanning the 1898 cut-off date. Individuals possessing or planning to acquire a percussion cap firearm or a muzzle-loading handgun need to know if it was made before or after 1898 in order to know what rules apply.
 
Perfectly legal to shoot on crown land;just don't get caught!

:) That's true. Most LEO's will have no idea about antique gun laws so, they will usually err on the side of, it ain't legal. It might help a bit if you have an FRT for that particular gun, at least you can show some proof that it is an antique but, that doesn't guarantee anything. LEO will do whatever they want.
 
According to RCMP rules if made before 1898, no licensing requirements are necessary

[h=2]Muzzleloaders made before 1898[/h]All black powder muzzleloaders made before 1898 are considered antique firearms. Antique firearms are exempt from the licence and registration requirements set out in the Firearms Act.
[h=2]Muzzleloaders made after 1898[/h]All matchlock, flintlock and wheel lock long guns are considered antiques no matter when they were made. Like older firearms of these types, they are exempt from the licence and registration requirements set out in the Firearms Act.
Percussion cap long guns and muzzle-loading black powder handguns made after 1898 are not considered antiques even if they are copies of an earlier antique model. Newer percussion cap long guns are classified as non-restricted firearms; newer handguns, including matchlock, wheel lock and flintlock handguns made after 1898, are classified as restricted if their barrel length is over 105 mm (about 4 inches), or prohibited if their barrel length is 105 mm or less.
It is important to note that there are a lot of reproduction firearms on the market. In addition, some firearms were made over a period of several years spanning the 1898 cut-off date. Individuals possessing or planning to acquire a percussion cap firearm or a muzzle-loading handgun need to know if it was made before or after 1898 in order to know what rules apply.

An 1851 isn't a muzzle loader is it? O.P. Check the sticky, some calibers cannot be classified as antiques.
 
And indeed it is not a firearm unless it is used in the commitment of an offence!. Granny can buy and own one of these without having any license whatsoever. Only proviso is that it must be stored like any firearm and transported in the same manner.
 
If it is indeed an original, then it's true that only the Storage, display, transportation, and handling portion of the Firearms act applies. Look that up. But pertaining to the Handling portion you specifically asked; it states that under the Handling section, the firearm may be handled, loaded and discharged where lawfully legal to do so under all acts of parliament and municipal bylaws of your given province. (Something along those lines) So in other words, if you've got a location you're already safe shooting 22's at soup cans, or .410's per say at clays on a post for example, you'd be just as legal shooting that old cap n ball there too. A lawful location for handling or discharging non-restricteds would be just as lawful a location for that cap n ball.

Looking into things further, the Antiques do become recognized firearms and their users chargeable the minute they might be used illegally; which could be by use in a crime, carrying concealed, knowingly bringing to town & public meeting, pointing at another person etc etc. Do something like that and the charges & penalties are the same as if it were a restricted and is where the differences in classifications between the two end.
 
Only proviso is that it must be stored like any firearm and transported in the same manner.

Not quite.

https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/SOR-98-209/FullText.html

Antique Firearms
14 (1) An individual may store, display or transport an antique firearm only if it is unloaded.

(2) An individual may transport an antique firearm in an unattended vehicle only if

(a) when the vehicle is equipped with a trunk or similar compartment that can be securely locked, the antique firearm is in that trunk or compartment and the trunk or compartment is securely locked; and

(b) when the vehicle is not equipped with a trunk or similar compartment that can be securely locked, the antique firearm is not visible from outside the vehicle and the vehicle, or the part that contains the antique firearm, is securely locked.

(3) An individual may transport an antique firearm that is a handgun only if it is in a locked container that is made of an opaque material and is of such strength, construction and nature that it cannot readily be broken open or into or accidentally opened during transportation.
 
Hi guys,

I have read the regs regarding antique firearms and also have read a few posts from forum members and I still am a little confused. Can someone please help give me a clear answers;

- Is an original Colt Navy 1851 considered:

1)restricted
2)non restricted
3) or not a firearm that needs to be licenced.

If it is 2 or 3, does that mean I can legally shoot a colt 1851 on private or crown land?

Thanks for your help.

It may help you or confuse you to know that 'antique' and 'restricted' are not mutually exclusive categories.

A particular firearm can be both restricted or prohibited AND an antique.

Note that there are firearms which meet the definition of antique that are prescribed by regulation to NOT be antiques, and there are firearms that do not meet the definition of antique that are prescribed by regulation to be antique.

At the end of the day, if you are sure your handgun is an antique, then regardless of whether or not its restricted, you can carry it loaded and discharge it legally anywhere that it is legal to discharge firearms generally. Whether or not this is a good idea is up to you.

I fully support and encourage you enjoy your lawfully owned property to the full extent of what is permitted. If you are going to open carry a loaded handgun without a license, I'd probably buy firearms legal defense insurance.
 
Hi guys,

I have read the regs regarding antique firearms and also have read a few posts from forum members and I still am a little confused. Can someone please help give me a clear answers;

- Is an original Colt Navy 1851 considered:

1)restricted
2)non restricted
3) or not a firearm that needs to be licenced.

If it is 2 or 3, does that mean I can legally shoot a colt 1851 on private or crown land?

Thanks for your help.

Just make sure that your original 1851 is not second generation 1851.
 
"If you are going to open carry a loaded handgun without a license, I'd probably buy firearms legal defense insurance."

Yep, I tried that once and, they told me that I needed to have a license, before I could apply for the legal insurance.
 
"If you are going to open carry a loaded handgun without a license, I'd probably buy firearms legal defense insurance."

Yep, I tried that once and, they told me that I needed to have a license, before I could apply for the legal insurance.

I had an interesting exchange a while back over the fine print in that policy. The policy only covers firearms, and not other objects/weapons such as knives, air soft etc.

I told the insurance guy "what about firearms for which you don't need a license, like antiques, where a person could easily run afoul of some uninformed cop?

The answer led me to believe that if you have PAL, you can buy the insurance, and that the lawyers would get involved on that grey stuff. Bottom line is that this is a new insurance product and they are going to err on the side of being responsive, at least initially. The whole concept is at risk of being dead in the water the first time they leave a gun owner high and dry.
 
It may help you or confuse you to know that 'antique' and 'restricted' are not mutually exclusive categories.

A particular firearm can be both restricted or prohibited AND an antique.

Note that there are firearms which meet the definition of antique that are prescribed by regulation to NOT be antiques, and there are firearms that do not meet the definition of antique that are prescribed by regulation to be antique.

At the end of the day, if you are sure your handgun is an antique, then regardless of whether or not its restricted, you can carry it loaded and discharge it legally anywhere that it is legal to discharge firearms generally. Whether or not this is a good idea is up to you.

I fully support and encourage you enjoy your lawfully owned property to the full extent of what is permitted. If you are going to open carry a loaded handgun without a license, I'd probably buy firearms legal defense insurance.

Dual classifications? "restricted firearm antique non-firearm". That's a new one to me. I thought a an antique was a non-firearm can't be a restricted or prohibited firearm but now here are all these new classifications you have thrown in to the mix. What is your opinion based on? :)
 
Cameron SS - what are these "dual classifications" and can you give a real world example? I would like to see your reasoning or proof.

AS far as I know there are 3 legal classifications of FIREARMS in Canada:
1. non-restricted
2. restricted
3. prohibited

Antiques are specifically classed as non-firearms and as such are outside of the 3 legal classifications of firearms. I see no provision for dual classification in the cc that would allow a antique firearm to also be classified as a restricted or prohibited firearm. Please explain.
 
Dual classifications? "restricted firearm antique non-firearm". That's a new one to me. I thought a an antique was a non-firearm can't be a restricted or prohibited firearm but now here are all these new classifications you have thrown in to the mix. What is your opinion based on? :)

My opinion is based on the law. Specifically S 2 and S 84 of the criminal code.

Section 2 defines 'Firearm'. Any antique that has a barrel and can fire a projectile meets this definition, and is therefore a firearm. There are no exceptions. Once a firearm under section 2, always a firearm under section 2.

Section 84(1) contains the definitions for Restricted Firearm and Prohibited firearm. Handguns are either one or the other, based on barrel length, or whether they are on the prescribed lists. Again, there are no exceptions. IF it meets the definition of restricted, it is always restricted.
Lastly, 84(1) defines antique, which is complicated but for our purposes lets pretend it isn't.

The definition of restricted, for example, includes "any handgun that is not prohibited" Ie a restricted handgun can not also be prohibited. Likewise, the definition of Non Restricted specifically states "a firearm that is neither restricted nor prohibited. Further, all three categories of firearm permit a firearm to be prescribed into that class. Section 117.15 (3 and 4) states that a firearm prescribed to be (and I'm paraphrasing) anything other than its native class, is deemed to be the prescribed class, and not the native class.

Taken all together, the law clearly creates mutually exclusive categories for Non-Restricted, Restricted, and prohibited.

No such language exists anywhere in law to create 'antique' as a mutually exclusive category to the other three.

84.3 States that for the purposes of certain sections of the firearms act, Antiques are deemed not to be firearms, meaning essentially those sections of the firearms act aren't antiques.
It doesn't say antiques aren't firearms, just that those sections don't apply to them.
Those sections are 91 to 95, 99 to 101, 103 to 107 and 117.03
So you don't need a license, a registration, certificate, an authorization to transport, etc, for an antique.
The exemption in 84.3 does not exempt antiques from the other definitions found in 84(1), therefore those definitions, IE handgun, Semi auto, restricted, prohibited etc, all still apply to antiques.

This would be completely un-controversial were it not for the fact that the regulations for transportation specifically contain separate rules for antiques, but no where in those rules does it say antiques are to be treated as NOT being restricted or prohibited for the purposes of those regulations. A review of the rules specific to antiques tells us that the storage rules for antique handguns are not incompatible with the rules for restricted or prohibited handguns, ie, it is possible to comply with both at the same time, if you follow both sets of rules. Therefore the implication is that you have to follow both.

Its stupid, I know. But its what the law says.
 
Cameron SS - what are these "dual classifications" and can you give a real world example? I would like to see your reasoning or proof.

AS far as I know there are 3 legal classifications of FIREARMS in Canada:
1. non-restricted
2. restricted
3. prohibited

Antiques are specifically classed as non-firearms and as such are outside of the 3 legal classifications of firearms. I see no provision for dual classification in the cc that would allow a antique firearm to also be classified as a restricted or prohibited firearm. Please explain.

You are right that there are three mutually exclusive classes. NR, Res and Prohib.

Antique is a special status. Not a class. Antiques are not specially class as non-firearms. YOU provide YOUR explanation, referencing the law, that leads you to believe this.

There is no such thing as "non-firearm" under the law. Either something is a firearm, or it isn't.

The criminal code defines a firearm as:

firearm means a barrelled weapon from which any shot, bullet or other projectile can be discharged and that is capable of causing serious bodily injury or death to a person, and includes any frame or receiver of such a barrelled weapon and anything that can be adapted for use as a firearm

Any antique that has a barrel and can fire a shot that is capable of causing serious bodily harm, (which is generally determined by the pigs eye test, which is in the vicinity of 250 FPS depending on the projectile), meets the definition of a firearm. The rest of the analysis that I posted above flows from this.
 
Back
Top Bottom