Lets Talk Off Set Back Up Iron Sights...

[Cameron SS]

Starting this here because the optics thread doesnt really mention irons much and figured this is the crowd that would be the most in the know.

So BUIS are nothing new. Always thought it was a tactical "SHTF and my scope took a bullet" kind of back up sight.

Never liked the idea of BUIS that mounted under the scope such that you had to take the scope off or get a flip over scope mount to use them.

Then comes the 45 degree off set sights. These I like.

4 power Acog on the AR isnt great for >25m CQB, so the more open irons is very attractive.

Seems there are generally two types.
Type 1. Fixed irons
Type 2. Flip up irons.

For anyone thats used these, and for more than 20 shots, what are you running? Love it or hate it?

Is the fold down a novelty? Do the fixed sights get in the way?

How did you find mounting them without the mount interfering with your scope?

How are they set up? Both front and rear on the receiver? On the hand guard? As far apart as possible?

Any evidence that the rear site is getting hit by flying brass?
Any other ah ha moments during install or use?

I see magpul has a set of flip ups that are almost 200. I see some chinese made aluminum ones on amazon for less than 30 that have enough good reviews to be tempting. I see reputable CGN dealers offering sets in the 60-100 range that look identical to the 40 amazon sets.

Would love hear recommendations on both specific brands as well as the style and the physical set up.

 

[wildphil24]

As a lefty I had less options. Only true ambidextrous are Troy and XS sights.

XS sights are unique with their low-profile. Because they're so low, they don't fit well on an AR15 and are better on a rifle with the rail higher above the stock.

Troy offsets are great like every Troy folding sights. On the left side the rear sight obstruct the Stag-15 LH charging handle latch and the left brass deflector doesn't allow to place it farther ahead.
Didn't use them much but I like them. Seems like an instinctive motion and position.

In regards to scope clearance, it a non-issue. The Troy mounting part is lower than any folding sights I can imagine.

Like any iron sights, I believe the best is to mount them farther apart.

The fixed offset sights add bulk. Never handled any but for storage and transport I like a rifle rather flat. Sights protubing 1.5" on the side won't help that. Maybe it makes sense on a war or home defense carbine but I don't have these.

For right-handed, there are now many more options.
The original was the Dueck defense. I believe it was bought by Surefire.
Magpul certainly makes good ones too.

Some people also buy offset-45° rails and use them to mount BUIS or MBUS.

 

[Innavedaw]

I had a set of Troy's as well (I am also a lefty)...Very spendy but very good. I've since swapped them out for a Vortex Viper on an offset mount and I am enjoying that much more...quicker target acquisition.

When I had the iron's, rear sight was mounted under the eyepiece of my scope and front sight was mounted at the front of the hand guard to give as much sight radius as possible. I use my primary scope for distance (1 x 8) and use the offset for quick transitions to close targets, hence the switch to a red dot. I am not the most flexible of people so having that offset sight has also come in handy more than once for those times you need to find an unconventional position while shooting off a barricade or through angled or low ports...

I have Magpul flip up BUIS on a couple of rifles and have always found them solid and reliable - I expect the offset ones are built the same...The only reason I spent the money on the Troy's was because I needed left hand offsets...if Magpul made those I would have saved myself some cash.

 

[Djb1]

l use the magpul offsets backwards as a lefty. No problem.. they flip down forwards instead of backwards but that's it. They're slim and great.

 

[PSE]

I've often wondered if these had any real value. As far as I know no military or police forces have adopted these so I guess I'm wondering if these have any real utility or are they just another cool thing to bolt on your already overweight rifle.

You can get high quality rifle scopes that go down to a true 1X and give a very wide field of view (or red dot sights) that are very fast to acquire a sight picture. Scopes are quite rugged today so is a back up offset sight really a must have?

Not trying to start a flame war I'm just curious - Has anyone heard of a good quality scope failing and had to switch to irons in an emergency or even in competitive shooting?

Has anyone in the Canadian Forces wished he had a set of offset irons?

 

[Phat Eagle]

Hate to admit it, but I've had to use BUIS three time in competition... twice my bloody optic fell off (12 gauge is hard on the Eotech), and once my batteries died mid run.

I've switched to a Vortex Viper on 45 offset to complement my Strike Eagle 1-8. See how that runs this next season.

 

[wildphil24]

Scopes are quite rugged today so is a back up offset sight really a must have?
Has anyone heard of a good quality scope failing and had to switch to irons in an emergency or even in competitive shooting?

Beside the "back-up" role, offset sights are chosen for versatility. My understanding is that it started on race rifles to save time for switching the scope magnification. Using the scope for distance and irons for close shots.

About the military rifles, I'm under the impression that most have a second aiming devices, often folding sights and/or laser.

 

[Cameron SS]

Beside the "back-up" role, offset sights are chosen for versatility. My understanding is that it started on race rifles to save time for switching the scope magnification. Using the scope for distance and irons for close shots.

About the military rifles, I'm under the impression that most have a second aiming devices, often folding sights and/or laser.

Lasers are more of a night time thing. Not many wear NVGs in the day time. The CAF issues a very low quality back up rear sight that cowitnesses with the front sight and tucks in tightly with the elcan. You have to take the elcan off to use it so not something that is easy to use. Not aware of anyone needing one, but then Ive never heard of a Jumper actually needing his reserve chute either.

Im sure more than a few guys used their own back ups, but the issued guns only have the receiver rail to mount on and a fixed A2 FSB, so not a lot of real estate to mount on and a limited set of options to witness with the front sight.

If you have a great scope that dials down to 1x quickly then BUIS might not be necessary. My scopes min power is 3x which gives epic tunnel vision at less than 20m.

Appreciate the comments so far. Keep them coming.

 

[Innavedaw]

Hate to admit it, but I've had to use BUIS three time in competition... twice my bloody optic fell off (12 gauge is hard on the Eotech), and once my batteries died mid run.

I've switched to a Vortex Viper on 45 offset to complement my Strike Eagle 1-8. See how that runs this next season.

That’s exactly the setup I have and I love it...

 

[edgy]

I just picked up a set from TNA, the $65 folding diamond head sights. I figured this would give me a chance to see if they are worth it on the cheap. TNA says to just mount them backwards if you are a lefty and they work fine, so I shall see.
My plan is a bit different though,, most of the shooting we do is within 40 yards,so I don't think I need a 1-8 scope. I am going to try just running my Holosun red dot for most shots, but use the offset irons for the very few 100-200 yard shots we make, I figure if I practice with the irons 100-200 shouldn't be a problem. Kind of backwards thinking to most I guess, but I'm having a hard time convincing myself I need a 1-8 scope when 90% of our shots are red dot territory

 

[Cameron SS]

I just picked up a set from TNA, the $65 folding diamond head sights. I figured this would give me a chance to see if they are worth it on the cheap. TNA says to just mount them backwards if you are a lefty and they work fine, so I shall see.
My plan is a bit different though,, most of the shooting we do is within 40 yards,so I don't think I need a 1-8 scope. I am going to try just running my Holosun red dot for most shots, but use the offset irons for the very few 100-200 yard shots we make, I figure if I practice with the irons 100-200 shouldn't be a problem. Kind of backwards thinking to most I guess, but I'm having a hard time convincing myself I need a 1-8 scope when 90% of our shots are red dot territory

Interesting, but I dont know many people who would say 200 is outside of red dot territory.

I did a one day carbine workshop with the good people at C/S 66 and within 2 hrs of basic marksmanship coaching guys were ringing 1/3rds IPSC silhouettes at 300m like the dinner bell with EOTechs, aim points, and all kinds of little dr sights or holo sights. As long as your reticule is 3 moa or smaller, nothing wrong with red dots out to 200. Try turning down the brightness...

 

[edgy]

Interesting, but I dont know many people who would say 200 is outside of red dot territory.

I did a one day carbine workshop with the good people at C/S 66 and within 2 hrs of basic marksmanship coaching guys were ringing 1/3rds IPSC silhouettes at 300m like the dinner bell with EOTechs, aim points, and all kinds of little dr sights or holo sights. As long as your reticule is 3 moa or smaller, nothing wrong with red dots out to 200. Try turning down the brightness...

Thanks for the tip on turning down the brightness, I will give that a try. I had considered a 3x multiplier, but I heard they are extremely heavy, so I thought the offsets might be a better way to go

 

[redshooter]

Not aware of anyone needing one, but then Ive never heard of a Jumper actually needing his reserve chute either.

iirc The Canadian Airborne Regt. Museum had a reserve chute that had saved buddies bacon when he had a total malfunction. It was the only one that had occurred in the Regt. up until the mid 80's so it's a pretty rare event, BUT if something can fail it will. In this case some dummy left the mains out in the weather, and this guys chute was frozen, and the line that ties the canopy to the deployment bag just snapped leaving the chute neatly folded up on his back.

I can't really comment on offset sights because I've never used them, but I can comment on the quality of Chinese knock offs. I have a clone of LMT's adjustable rear sight. It's functional but it's construction is bordering on flimsy. I'd be reluctant to order anything I hadn't had in my hand. I ordered my sight online, and although I'm satisfied with what I got, it's only because it was cheap...

 

[Cameron SS]

Thanks for the tip on turning down the brightness, I will give that a try. I had considered a 3x multiplier, but I heard they are extremely heavy, so I thought the offsets might be a better way to go

Just bright enough to see it easily is what we were taught. A lot of guys go full bright right out of the gate and that can definitely obscure or wash out targets at the longer distances.

Im not too interested in the back ups due to a fear of the statisticslly insignificant odds of a primary failure. Its more because my optic isnt great at short range cqb, and its either get a whole new shorter range optic, or buis. The cost of the back ups will be less than the loss Id take on the optic, so figured Id go for it.

 

[Cameron SS]

I can comment on the quality of Chinese knock offs. I have a clone of LMT's adjustable rear sight. It's functional but it's construction is bordering on flimsy. I'd be reluctant to order anything I hadn't had in my hand. I ordered my sight online, and although I'm satisfied with what I got, it's only because it was cheap...

Ive purchased a lot of chinese mad good over the years. Some are basically of ornamental quality (looks good but dont touch it) and some are basically the real thing but without some etching to mark it as a US company product.

Well I bought something based literally on amazon reviews. This could either be the best deal of my life or I am going to get a 25$ education on Amazons return policy.

Lets keep this conversation going though because it seems to be an emerging trend and I doubt this will be my last buis purchase.

These will also be on my to do list at SHOT SHOW 2019.

 

[Ottawafireguy]

I have a 1-6 Optic on my SBR. I added offset sights but my set up is different. Rather than an offset sight set, I picked up two offset mounts (Weaver I believe, pic rail to pic rail, 45 degree) and then mounted front and rear sights (Troy) to them. This is very flexible, I can remove the offsets and optic and mount the sights on the top pic rails, I can use the off sets for a red dot, I can use the sights on different rifles where I don't need the offset, etc. I did find that with my particular SBR, it is 10.5" and only has pic rails on the upper, so my sights were maybe 8" apart = really crappy sight radius.

 

[khw]

I have offset Knights Armament flip up BUIS and they are solid. Weren't cheap... but if you have used KAC BUIS before they are very easy to get a sight picture with quickly and adjustable to 600m when zeroed.

 

[trailskinpat]

I mounted a cheap set I found on the EE for the exact same reasons “ edgy “ outlined earlier. We will have to practice those 200 yard shoots to see how it pans out but just having an instant alternative should the red dot pack it in mid stage is comforting.

 

[r34skyline]

Folding would be my choice. Fixed is something sticking out to potentially snag on something or get bumped. Folding offers a lower profile till needed. At least that's the way my brain logically thinks it through. Then again my ar has an a frame front sight so...

 

[RedApe]

Why not simply cowitness a set of irons with your red dot? Your cheek weld doesn't change, they can be flip up or not. Why use an offset