Improving a 22LR hollow point......

The idea with the mercury or glycerin is at least 90 yrs old, and I wondered nobody mentioned it in here before me. Modern day experiments included elastic materials, like some hydronic types of rubber, but apparently they didn't work as good. "Compressible" oils was another hope in the 50's and 60's, but I don't know about any fantastic results. Again, for information only.

While I'm not sure much would be needed, the idea of stuffing fulminate of mercury into a .22 hollow-point would seem to be odd on several grounds but, just naming two:

1) there's not that much mercury fulminate that can be fit into the hp,

2) those cartridges could very well be as dangerous to the shooter as they would be to the target, given the "jostle-factor" inherent in the firing process.

3) Survivor's reports will be valued.

Random disclaimer: if it's unsafe/unlawful, don't do it.
 
While I'm not sure much would be needed, the idea of stuffing fulminate of mercury into a .22 hollow-point would seem to be odd on several grounds but, just naming two:

1) there's not that much mercury fulminate that can be fit into the hp,

2) those cartridges could very well be as dangerous to the shooter as they would be to the target, given the "jostle-factor" inherent in the firing process.

3) Survivor's reports will be valued.

Random disclaimer: if it's unsafe/unlawful, don't do it.

I don't know if Dr. Lector was talking about mercury fulminate or lead styphnate. Maybe the reference to glycerin led to that conclusion. And if we're talking quantity.... there's enough space.... more that two primer's worth.

If one does not like the performance of hollow points, then how about simply not buying hollow points?

Jeese, I can't believe someone finally said it! I was just about to jump in and say the exact same thing as Calum, why the hell would you want to fill a hollow point in the first place when you can buy solids?

Are you guys serious? Did you even bother to read what this thread is all about?:slap:

IMHO, the best slow velocity bullets are flat points, SGB style. The bullet simply can not fail to perform, if the placement is ok!

We're talking about something else. Slow velocity are very good for game getting, because they don't ruin meat. Most of this thread is about killing them instantly, regardless of the 18+ rated picture ;)
 
While I'm not sure much would be needed, the idea of stuffing fulminate of mercury into a .22 hollow-point would seem to be odd on several grounds but, just naming two:

1) there's not that much mercury fulminate that can be fit into the hp,

I like your post:)
If you have read mine, you might have found that I said “mercury”. I meant “mercury”. It’s also called quicksilver in the suburbia, or Hydrargyr in scientific circles (symbol Hg).
I didn’t say “fulminate” and I didn’t find "fulminate" in any other posts previous to my previous one (but it may be because I’m a little tired now).
I also said “glycerin”.

Mercury doesn’t usually explode. And it doesn’t burn at temperatures nor in conditions easy to be found.

I will try to explain the idea of my previous posts about mercury, because it caused some confusion.


First type:
Almost 100 years ago, some people had the evil idea to fill the cavity of a HP bullet with mercury, leaving some room for air and closing (or plugging) it. If I’m not mistaken, mercury is the heaviest element on Earth. On impact, the bullet is slowed first, naturally, but the column of mercury tends to keep moving forward (inertia, eh?), bursting the tip of the bullet, producing, so they say, additional wound, (damage, etc) which I will not discuss here. You can (re)read in my previous post what I said about the hole as thin and long as opposed to large and shallow.


Second type:
Some other people had some even more evil ideas, and engineered the shape of the hollow cavity in the bullet in such a way that the pressure in the mercury column during the impact produces a lateral (sideways) fracture of the jacket.

So, in the first case, the mercury column uses its heavy mass to rupture the tip and produce additional damage.
In the second case, the volume of mercury uses its hydraulic properties to transmit the impact to the sidewalls causing the jacket to rupture.
However (in the second case), this effect was minimized by the fact that the very heavy mercury column still had a great tendency to move forward. So they started to experiment in order to find a lighter hydraulic agent to replace mercury. They found some things to work better than others: glycerin, some paraffins (actually a whole bunch of waxes), oils, greases, etc. They said they work more efficient than mercury in producing the sideways fractures of the jacket, if used in connection with that cavity of special shape.


Those would be the two main cases of the filled HP cavity to use heavy mass moving free inside the projectile or some hydraulic effects to cause tip or jacket ruptures that the solid projectiles can't offer.


Kids, don’t try this at home. I can't emphasize it enough. Mercury is very dangerous. It’s liquid and it also evaporates at room temperatures. The human body doesn’t know to identify mercury and it deposits it in all kinds of tissues, because it confuses it with some other elements. It’s VERY toxic.

In addition to this, mercury has the property to dissolve a bunch of other metals, including lead (that is why some people immerse their barrels in mercury to clean the lead fouling).
When the regular joe blow will try to fill the HP cavity with mercury, if there is any fresh cut (un-corroded) in the lead, the mercury will start to “mate” with the lead (it’s absorbed in the lead), resulting in a very crapy bullet, like a cheese, possibly distorted too. This shyte is very soft and produces very harmful fumes and vapors if you try firing it in a gun.
To avoid this, the lead in the cavity has to be covered first (insulated against the mercury) with something, but this is another story. I am the only one to blame because I knew I shouldn’t start posting in a thread like this.

Random disclaimer: if it's unsafe/unlawful, don't do it.

I can't agree more. This is no joking matter.


2) those cartridges could very well be as dangerous to the shooter as they would be to the target, given the "jostle-factor" inherent in the firing process.

I can't agree more.
I didn't/don’t discuss here fulminates and other things. Yes, I know they can be dangerous (in fact, ANYTHING can be dangerous, sticking the nose outside one’s home at the wrong moment can produce death or serious, permanent and debilitating injuries).



I hope this post helps in the understanding of my previous ones:)







About what member hunter64 said about the 22 blanks. Yes, it exists, they say it works, although I can’t testify to this as I didn’t try it. It’s referred to in many internal publications available to forensic specialists, together with photos, including photos of the wounds.
One of the best solutions is said to have the blank recessed in the cavity so it doesn’t get hit and ignite prematurely on the barrel ramp.

For information only.








I go in the other thread to bug Deckard:D
 
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I go a different route. instead of filling the hollow, i use a "christmas tree" bit and my dremel to make a larger hollow with a long taper. if i'm fussy, i sand off the burs. I've done this to stingers, and a square hit barely makes it thru a gopher.
 
Thank you Dr. Lector. I wasn't thinking of anything in the lines of explosive compounds stuffed in the hollow cavity. It might be interesting to research all these, but it bears on being paid to do so by the government.

All I was trying to do is the obvious... getting the incompressibility of the grease/wax to work towards amplifying the explosive effect a hollow point has upon hitting a denser media. No mentions on the Russian governor in Finland assassinated with a bullet filled with mercury.
I think that capping that hollow-point after filling it with grease/wax would have the desired effect of side pressure inside the bullet, once it hits the target.

With just simple grease I could hear a more distinct "thwack" on impact on gophers. Wether or not it was just because the few grains added to the bullet lowered the velocity, making the hits more audible, or it's a real effect in the target, I do not know yet. The temperature/sun/flies didn't lend a proper autopsy for that particular moment.

I saw a couple of them with blown out entrails. My only problem is that being about 70-80m away.....I shot a few in that colony and some of the shooting took place with Aguila Super Maximum. The tall grass made distinguishing between what was shot with what - impossible. The scope I used was a 4x and .... Well, I'll equip better next time.
 
I go a different route. instead of filling the hollow, i use a "christmas tree" bit and my dremel to make a larger hollow with a long taper. if i'm fussy, i sand off the burs. I've done this to stingers, and a square hit barely makes it thru a gopher.

Do you have a fixture for that? And if no, did you notice any change i accuracy?
 
Are you guys serious? Did you even bother to read what this thread is all about?:slap:

:redface: oops, sorry eltorro. I thought you were trying to improve the ballistics of a 22 by basically turning it into a solid. I didn't realize you wanted to improve the expansion factor. As a bullet caster and a reloader I'd like to make two points on the subject if I may. 1) I have seen photos of .22 in ballistics gel that has totally fragmented into little bits. There velocity would probably be too low to be explosive, but they would still cause a lot of damage due to the fragmentation. The lead used in a .22 rimfire is extremely soft. IMHO I don't think you would be able to improve upon them by added anything to the tip, although I haven't acually tried myself. 2) The next point. As a reloader, the amount of propellant added to the case directly corrosponds to the weight of the bullet. And since most HP rimfires are high velocity, one could assume that their case capacity and pressures are maxed out. Therefore, even though there may only be a very slight increase in bullet mass by filling the HP up with foreign material, is this practice safe? Just a couple of points to ponder;)
 
I like your post:)
If you have read mine, you might have found that I said “mercury”. I meant “mercury”. It’s also called quicksilver in the suburbia, or Hydrargyr in scientific circles (symbol Hg).
I didn’t say “fulminate” and I didn’t find "fulminate" in any other posts previous to my previous one (but it may be because I’m a little tired now).
I also said “glycerin”.

In all sincerity, what I like about the CGN forums is that most I've encountered here are mature, friendly and polite. Dr. Lector and eltorro are no exceptions to this.

I made sure to try to read your mercury/glycerin post carefully, but I must admit that the first thing that hit my mind was "The Hitman's Handbook" or some other novella espousing the glory of the AR-7 as "the ultimate assassin's tool". Not that I'd ever accuse anyone here of reading such written lore, but I've seen some Duncan Long quotes floating around the forums as of late...

Having said all that, I'd not thought of plugging HP's with liquids, (especially the poisonous ones!), but it does offer some food for thought. At the same time - and not to be a nit-picker - it may be something to consider that mercury is only slightly more dense than lead (an intuitive way of understanding lead's own density is to recall that the vests used by medical practitioners to halt the radiation of x-rays usually contain lead), and given that the .22's in question are often already lead-based, the mercury-fix (in terms of weight alone) may need additional thinking-through. That said, it's always good to think in new venues and explore new ideas, etc., etc.

With a nod and sincere acknowledgement to eltorro's comment on the size of a .22's hollowpoint, my gut still tells me that there is very limited room for whatever substance that is inserted to do its thing - esp. if "its thing" is swishing from side to side inside a cavity. While the .22 may be one of "the most fiddled-with" bullets around - this despite its not usually being reloaded (though reloading-via-bullet-pulling the LR bullet it is possible, reloading-via-bullet-pulling was routinely done on the .22 WMR among a certain crowd at one point in time, and any rimfire reloading-via-bullet-pulling should only be attempted with the proper equipment and considerable care, given its particular priming) - there's just not all that much room to fill in a .22 hollowpoint. There's no doubt that there may be many interesting things to do in stuffing a .22 hollowpoint - I've enjoyed reading the posts and testing on my own so far so I'm certainly not dismissing .22 hollowpoint-stuffing altogether: after all, I'm not one of the fellows who waltzed into the thread three pages in and asked why we don't just use round-nosed bullets. :) Just kidding, guys!

Shaping a .22 LR - hollowpoint, solid-nose or otherwise - is a whole 'nother matter of course...

Once again, I really have to say how much I admire the maturity, friendliness and knowledge of the majority of the folks I encounter here on the CGN forums, and I look forward to further posts with you all (a.k.a. y'all).

Oh, and two passing comments to those aforementioned people who wonder why round-nosed ammo isn't used instead of the hollowpoints:

1) it's fun to experiment - esp. when the test mediums are as inexpensive as .22 LR's, and

2) for some reason, the .22 hollowpoints I've come across to-date have always been less expensive than their round-nosed counterparts, provided that the only difference between the hollow's and the round's is the hollowpoint itself. For example, among the less-expensive Winchester .22's, I've seen the Xpert go for around $2.00 less than the Wildcat, while the American Eagle round-nose's I've encountered are more expensive than the hollowpoints. It may just be the quirk of my personal experiences, or the fact that most hollow-points are 38-grain while round-nosed cartridges are 40-grain (so presumably less material goes into making the hollowpoints), but both the Winchester Xpert and the Wildcat are 40-grain, so go figure.

Um, right. Hopefully something worthwhile was said in the above tangled mess. As for some humour regarding the density of our beloved periodic elements (now THERE's a sentence you never thought you'd hear twice-in-a-lifetime, eh?):

Researchers have recently discovered the heaviest and densest element known to science: Administratium.

Administratium has one neutron, 12 assistant neutrons, 75 deputy neutrons, and 111 assistant deputy neutrons, thereby giving it an atomic mass of 312.

These 312 particles are held together by a force called morons, which are surrounded by vast quantities of particles called peons. Since Administratium has no electrons, it is inert. However, it can be detected because it impedes every reaction with which it comes into contact. A minute amount of Administratium causes one reaction to take more than four days to complete when it would normally take less than one minute.

Administratium has a normal half-life of three years. It does not decay but, instead, undergoes a reorganization, in which a number of the assistant neutrons and deputy neutrons and assistant deputy neutrons exchange places.

In fact, Administratium's mass will actually increase over time, since each reorganization causes some morons to become neutrons....forming new ‘isodopes’. This characteristic of moron transformation leads some scientists to speculate that Administratium is formed whenever morons reach a certain quantity in concentration. This hypothetical quantity is referred to as "critical morass". You will know it when you see it.


By the way, tonnes of Administratium have been located throughout the CFC's premises... :)
 
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eltorro,
i just do it by hand, even carry a cordless dremel in the car for field use. if you are concerned about accuracy, sand the burrs off. i haven't noticed a difference, except that most gophers are too torn up to twitch.
 
Thanks Timsted. I'll give them a try... just found the right burr for the job...

@ Cyclone and Dr Lector.... I read about someone using copper paste.... any info on those?
 
I tried them with grease, on gophers.
I got some spectacular results with some of them and just plain thru and thru with others. I don't have ballistic gelatin so I can't rely on rely on some - maybe - lucky shots.
Plugging the HP is still an interesting alternative.... will have to look into that...

Wife cooked up a batch of that ballistic Jello last night and we tried fillin some .22's with vaseline cuz we didn't have any grease. Made the Jello taste all funny like. And what a flippin mess! Jello all over the place. I can only imagine what that vaseline would do on a golfer.
 
I read about someone using copper paste.... any info on those?

I don't remember finding anything about that.
Copper paste as in Never-Seize type lubricants? It is possible (theoretically at least) since essentially it's a grease.
Or as the product used in electronics industry? I don't know anything about its properties, sorry.
 
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Wife cooked up a batch of that ballistic Jello last night and we tried fillin some .22's with vaseline cuz we didn't have any grease. Made the Jello taste all funny like. And what a flippin mess! Jello all over the place. I can only imagine what that vaseline would do on a golfer.

Two things:

1) You must have an excellent, caring and fantastic wife - any lady who can cook up a batch of ballistic-anything deserves multiple kudos.

2) Any recipes for ballistic mediums would be most welcome (even posts to past CGN threads), provided that I'm not imposing on any generations-old family secrets...

eltorro, I'm just waiting on Mr. Kelly to ship me his tool so I can do some "more intensive" field-testing...
 
I bet that pesky spelling program that benefits some of us has taken the whole greasing the wad cutter to new means..

Dr Lector... I do not know what kind of copper paste, but after some research I found the link again . This is where I got the idea. http://www.guns.connect.fi/gow/QA10.html

Cyclone.... I hope you'll take pictures too.

I'm going to try to cook some jelly and fill a jug with it. Still not sure if the jug's walls would replicate the skin of a gopher or it's better to put everything in a couple of ziplocks and eliminate the skin effect altogether.
 
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