Price vs quality

Pacobillie, well said, you have to have the skills first, to make use of a high end gun, mind you I love the looks of hi end guns, same with tools, I use to buy tools because it was cheap, but after a few years, you find out that cheap tools , while they do the job, quality tools will do it better , faster and will always work
In Canada where we kill a bunch of paper, not real important.
if your gun was a tool- police, carry in US, than I would be spending more on guns that you KNOW will always work, though shooting 1-2 inch at 25 yrs not as important, as it will work 100%
 
One of my first economic courses I took back in the day spoke about guns and butter. The texts example was countries can have all the guns their money can buy or all the butter their money can buy but they can't have both.

Using Pacpbillie's 4 T's as the example assuming we have a limit to what we can or want to spend. You balance it off. You can spend all your money on the gun with none left over for practice or a bit less on the gun for a bit of practice. The skill level is limited by your physical attributes and mental capacity. You either have some of it, more of it or lots of it.

marshall introduces the 2nd level of Pacps T's and that is purpose. I shoot IDPA. Ideally I want to hit an 8" circle with every shot our to 35 yards. I need a gun that will do just that, all of the time. There is no bonus for two shots an inch apart dead center at 35 yards. I can buy a $800 - $1,200 gun that will meet my needs and much more be it Striker fired, hammer fired steel or polymer. (PPQ M2 5"/SIG X Five'CZ 85Combat/Shadow1 to name a few.) For the same quality I can spend three times that for a 1911. 1911's cost more to make to produce about the same result. Right now on the EE about $600 will do the same thing for a variety of designs.

There is a PPQ Match shooter on this forum who shoots PPC and claims his PPQ shoots as well as top end 1911's. The PPQ has a well know reputation for accuracy and combines it with reliability. I suspect he concluded the difference in price got him no improvement in the two things he requires accuracy and reliability. $1,200 vs $3,000+

From what I can see in 90% of the shooters hands the extra $2000 - $3000 may get you a safe Queen you will be afraid to get a rub mark on that in a Marksman/Sharpshooters hands will not score any better than the guys $450 used M&P. Go to an IPSC or IDPA club match and watch. The really good shooters are really good shooters and they likely will be shooting top end guns but they would be really good shooters with entry level guns as well. Neither sport requires bulls eye accuracy but they do demand reliability and accuracy out to a relatively short distance. If you are going to shoot Olympic Free Pistol than $5,000 might be your minimum entry level gun and none of the guns I mentioned will be of use to you.

Still Alive I think said it best when he said buy what you can afford and remember what I learned in Economics 100 it all boils down to Guns and Butter.

Take Care

Bob
ps There is a shooter out of Kitimat that now shoots in the top range of a Sharpshooter with a stock Norinco 1911 .45acp that now, through 8 years of shooting, has a well worn in trigger. The stock sights are still small and hard to see for me but not for him. In the years I have shot with him the damn gun has never jammed. The gun is reliable, and accurate enough for what he has to shoot. All for $349.

pps do not send this opinion to my wife. :<(
 
TheTooner said:
Many people buy more expensive things because it increases other people's awareness of how much money the buyer has.
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I now buy expensive things because 20 years ago I was a broke high school dropout that had a hard time paying rent.Now I like to treat myself to nicer things even if that means having to work 2 jobs to get what I want.
 
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DILLIGAF said:
I now buy expensive things because 20 years ago I was a broke high school dropout that had a hard time paying rent.Now I like to treat myself to nicer things even if that means having to save up for them or work 2 jobs to get what I want.
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But… I thought you were bragging.:)
 
Thanks for all the discussion and different viewpoints. I've recieved the 586 s&w and will have my 1911 in a week or 2. I purchased a thousand rounds for each and will go out and shoot and shoot some more.If i enjoy it as much as i think i will then i can look at buying something fancier.
 
Erkel1 said:
Thanks for all the discussion and different viewpoints. I've recieved the 586 s&w and will have my 1911 in a week or 2. I purchased a thousand rounds for each and will go out and shoot and shoot some more.If i enjoy it as much as i think i will then i can look at buying something fancier.
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I cannot talk to the quality of the Ruger SR1911, as I have never handled or shot one, but I am quite familiar with early 80s Smith & Wesson 586, being the owner of one. They are very fine revolvers, with wonderful triggers. I can only think of three other revolvers that are arguably better, and each one costs about three to four times the price of a 586. Those would be the Colt Python (no longer produced), the Manurhin MR73 and anything made by Korth. Unless you are daddy megabucks, you will likely keep the 586 and never regret buying it. The day you will sell it, expect to get your money back.
 
a 586 is one nice gun, I like them better than the 686, I watch a middle age ex rcmp shoot the bulls eye out double action with a tuned model 10 the other day, It was something to watch.
He did tell me that he got paid to shoot, that could help, but that is skill that you have or you don't have, same as in all things.
 
Canuck44 said:
One of my first economic courses I took back in the day spoke about guns and butter. The texts example was countries can have all the guns their money can buy or all the butter their money can buy but they can't have both.

Using Pacpbillie's 4 T's as the example assuming we have a limit to what we can or want to spend. You balance it off. You can spend all your money on the gun with none left over for practice or a bit less on the gun for a bit of practice. The skill level is limited by your physical attributes and mental capacity. You either have some of it, more of it or lots of it.

marshall introduces the 2nd level of Pacps T's and that is purpose. I shoot IDPA. Ideally I want to hit an 8" circle with every shot our to 35 yards. I need a gun that will do just that, all of the time. There is no bonus for two shots an inch apart dead center at 35 yards. I can buy a $800 - $1,200 gun that will meet my needs and much more be it Striker fired, hammer fired steel or polymer. (PPQ M2 5"/SIG X Five'CZ 85Combat/Shadow1 to name a few.) For the same quality I can spend three times that for a 1911. 1911's cost more to make to produce about the same result. Right now on the EE about $600 will do the same thing for a variety of designs.

There is a PPQ Match shooter on this forum who shoots PPC and claims his PPQ shoots as well as top end 1911's. The PPQ has a well know reputation for accuracy and combines it with reliability. I suspect he concluded the difference in price got him no improvement in the two things he requires accuracy and reliability. $1,200 vs $3,000+

From what I can see in 90% of the shooters hands the extra $2000 - $3000 may get you a safe Queen you will be afraid to get a rub mark on that in a Marksman/Sharpshooters hands will not score any better than the guys $450 used M&P. Go to an IPSC or IDPA club match and watch. The really good shooters are really good shooters and they likely will be shooting top end guns but they would be really good shooters with entry level guns as well. Neither sport requires bulls eye accuracy but they do demand reliability and accuracy out to a relatively short distance. If you are going to shoot Olympic Free Pistol than $5,000 might be your minimum entry level gun and none of the guns I mentioned will be of use to you.

Still Alive I think said it best when he said buy what you can afford and remember what I learned in Economics 100 it all boils down to Guns and Butter.

Take Care

Bob
ps There is a shooter out of Kitimat that now shoots in the top range of a Sharpshooter with a stock Norinco 1911 .45acp that now, through 8 years of shooting, has a well worn in trigger. The stock sights are still small and hard to see for me but not for him. In the years I have shot with him the damn gun has never jammed. The gun is reliable, and accurate enough for what he has to shoot. All for $349.

pps do not send this opinion to my wife. :<(
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Quoted for truth. Many years ago I watched a shooter who was tired of the high $$ arms race in the top IPSC class shoot a match with a basic factory 9mm, I forget the brand. He placed in the top 5, I think it was 3rd, shooting minor. Just a local match, but he was shooting against race guns.
 
emerson said:
Quoted for truth. Many years ago I watched a shooter who was tired of the high $$ arms race in the top IPSC class shoot a match with a basic factory 9mm.
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I wonder how many really rich guys or race track guys trade down their Ferrari’s or 12 cylinder Lamborghini’s for a 4 cylinder Camry or Hyundai?
 
This is just human nature reaction, if the gentleman own a middle shelf firearms, he wont say it shoot worste than a top shef firearm, just plain humaine nature at is best.:)
 
And it is human nature that some guys who spend a sh*te load on guns, can't accept the same performance could have been had at half the cost.

Anyway I've spent a lot on guns and I don't buy into the performance angle after a point. Historical rareness / exclusivity, complex engineering, highly skilled labour leading to a beautifully fit and finished unique end product, costs money. I can 100% appreciate that product and the experience of using it, without being under any delusions that it will be an objectively better 'performer' than some less expensive guns.
 
gdawg said:
And it is human nature that some guys who spend a sh*te load on guns, can't accept the same performance could have been had at half the cost.

Anyway I've spent a lot on guns and I don't buy into the performance angle after a point. Historical rareness / exclusivity, complex engineering, highly skilled labour leading to a beautifully fit and finished unique end product, costs money. I can 100% appreciate that product and the experience of using it, without being under any delusions that it will be an objectively better 'performer' than some less expensive guns.
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… And dont forget exclusivity and superb enginering, for me this is priceless.

And you are right human nature apply to all side of the equation.:)
 
johnl said:
I wonder how many really rich guys or race track guys trade down their Ferrari’s or 12 cylinder Lamborghini’s for a 4 cylinder Camry or Hyundai?
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Not a good comparason unless you are talking super-premium pistol vs. pot metal saturday night special POS.

Maybe a John Deer tractor compared to a Landini Tractor would be a more apt comparason. The John Deer will cost thousands more, but lots of farmers are farming profitably world wide with Landini tractors.

Is a SIG 1911 better than a Norinco; fit and finish is, no question. Quality of steel? doubtful. Functionality and accuracy possibly slightly better, trigger sure. Lifetime warranty? Sig has that... but fire one homeload, and it is void.

Are the Sigs $1000 to 1500 better than a Norinco? The answer is no.
 
Meroh said:
Not a good comparason unless you are talking super-premium pistol vs. pot metal saturday night special POS.

Maybe a John Deer tractor compared to a Landini Tractor would be a more apt comparason. The John Deer will cost thousands more, but lots of farmers are farming profitably world wide with Landini tractors.

Is a SIG 1911 better than a Norinco; fit and finish is, no question. Quality of steel? doubtful. Functionality and accuracy possibly slightly better, trigger sure. Lifetime warranty? Sig has that... but fire one homeload, and it is void.

Are the Sigs $1000 to 1500 better than a Norinco? The answer is no.
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The proverbial price of everything vs the value of nothing idiom.
 
Let put the record straight here, peoples who buy Norinco do because they cost less money, not because they are better. Gezz, i got 2 1911 BNIB in original boxes from the time a dealer was offering a pistol and one K rounds of 45 ACP for 499.00.

They are laying in the bottom of my safe with 500 pounds of ammo over them, i keep them as a reminicent of my debut in the handguns world.:)
 
caramel said:
Let put the record straight here, peoples who buy Norinco do because they cost less money, not because they are better. Gezz, i got 2 1911 BNIB in original boxes from the time a dealer was offering a pistol and one K rounds of 45 ACP for 499.00.

They are laying in the bottom of my safe with 500 pounds of ammo over them, i keep them as a reminicent of my debut in the handguns world.:)
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I agree some folk can’t afford high end and get into the hobby for little money, nothing wrong with that, besides the more in the sport the better. In my experience once you get a taste for better it’s harder to settle for less, whatever it is. When I got into shooting in the 80’s my first handgun was a HK P9s in .45acp followed by a S&W 686 and then a series 70 Colt Gold Cup, not bragging just liked the nice stuff.
 
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