The BCL WEJACK and CATAMOUNT

[ThatM305Guy]

your comments are barely comprehensible Try harder.

i was comparing two types of gas-operated, semi-automatic firearms. the discussion was regarding exclusively, gas-operated semi-automatic firearms, and competing mechanisms of operation.

how, in your mind, is idea of comparing a bolt-action rifle to either mechanism of implementing, a gas-operated semi-automatic firearm, a rational point of debate? I was making an obvious and extreme example in order to illustrate a point.
Clearly I was not blunt enough with you. Should I try memes instead?

the principles behind free-floating barrels is well beyond the point of debate. it is unequivocally a benefit to the precision of a rifle system to let a barrel oscillate without impediment especially when the impediment can vary (piston seating in a gas cup slightly different, clam-shell handguard slipping back and forth on a barrel, etc). To vary harmonization of a barrel, shot to shot, is to vary it's point of impact.
You are not entirely correct. There are numerous examples of rifles which benefit from tuning harmonics via pre-load on the barrel. (Off the top of my head Enfields, and the M14 (both sage and blackfeather utilize this)



show me literally any evidence that barrel mounted gas-pistons operate with increased reliability over modern AR15s or with less heat, and i'll show you evidence to the contrary. The "benefits" of reliability/maintenanc are a wash at best.



the idea is that the AR15 has the absolute minimum number of parts affixed on the barrel to operate as a semi-automatic, gas-operated firearm, and the parts that are affixed to the barrel are securely mounted such that they do not re-orient themselves between shots.



Good thing I didn't claim either of these things. Jesus christ dude. You say this in one sentence and then immediately continue to claim its superiority....make up your mind already. Fanboy or not??

*shrugs*

 

[JaredP]

I was making an obvious and extreme example in order to illustrate a point.
Clearly I was not blunt enough with you. Should I try memes instead?

And what point are you trying to illustrate? Clearly it is lost on me. What piece of knowledge am I missing from your brilliant reductionist argument of "why not just use a bolt-action" when we were discussing exclusively the pros/cons of two different implementations of semi-automatic gas-operated firearms? It is possible to implement a precise, free-floated, reliable firearm without it being a bolt-action or a piston gun. This is why Stoner designed the AR15 and it's bolt-as-piston operating mechanism.

There are numerous examples of rifles which benefit from tuning harmonics via pre-load on the barrel

these rifles do not "benefit from pre-load". They are "preloaded" as a bandaid to try to fix their ####ty bedding and barrel mounted pistons. Preloading is used to accomplish the exact same task as free-floating, consistent harmonics shot to shot. But it's much easier to get consistent harmonics with THE MINIMUM touching the barrel rather completely securing the barrel.

I have a no4 that was used in the Canadian winter olympic games in my safe. It shooters better than my No4 (T). It's free-floated.

And the M14 is a barrel mounted piston gun. Even if you removed the handguard, it would still not be "free floated".

You say this in one sentence and then immediately continue to claim its superiority....make up your mind already. Fanboy or not??

I claim it's superior to a barrel mounted gas-piston operated semi automatic firearm. Not "proclaim that all other rifle designs are inferior" or claim that the AR15 is perfect. Exactly what are you trying to claim?

 

[ThatM305Guy]

And what point are you trying to illustrate? Clearly it is lost on me. What piece of knowledge am I missing from your brilliant reductionist argument of "why not just use a bolt-action" when we were discussing exclusively the pros/cons of two different implementations of semi-automatic gas-operated firearms? It is possible to implement a precise, free-floated, reliable firearm without it being a bolt-action or a piston gun. This is why Stoner designed the AR15 and it's bolt-as-piston operating mechanism.
its pretty simple. You're saying that the AR is superior to all other piston driven semi-autos. I'm pointing out that you are an idiot for saying so. As stated: each design comes with its pros and cons. I'd Still take a tavor over an AR most days, because I feel more comfortable with the set of benefits and drawbacks that it provides when compared to the AR. Plus clearing my basement is way faster with a bullpup.

these rifles do not "benefit from pre-load". They are "preloaded" as a bandaid to try to fix their ####ty bedding and barrel mounted pistons. Preloading is used to accomplish the exact same task as free-floating, consistent harmonics shot to shot. But it's much easier to get consistent harmonics with THE MINIMUM touching the barrel rather completely securing the barrel.

I have a no4 that was used in the Canadian winter olympic games in my safe. It shooters better than my No4 (T). It's free-floated.
I would imagine that's likely why it was used in the Olympics. My AIA is not free floated, and shoots MOA with garbage Chinese surplus.

And the M14 is a barrel mounted piston gun. Even if you removed the handguard, it would still not be "free floated".
Neither would the AR. Free floating is a meme.

I claim it's superior to a barrel mounted gas-piston operated semi automatic firearm. Not "proclaim that all other rifle designs are inferior" or claim that the AR15 is perfect. Exactly what are you trying to claim?
Except it's not. It has advantages and disadvantages like any other design. Put your pom poms away.

....

 

[walks with loud stick]

When's the wedding?

 

[ThatM305Guy]

When's the wedding?

Do you have the authority and willingness to conduct a union? He can't run from his feelings forever.

 

[Epoxy7]

the barrel mounted piston is a liability. if it's implemented incorrectly, it decimates the precision of your rifle system...

...stoner had this genius idea where he just used the bolt AS the piston. he made a rifle around the idea, the ar15. why are extra parts such a genius idea when they're completely unnecessary?

I’m a huge fan of the DI AR rifles. I do agree that for accuracy DI is the way to go. However piston systems do have an advantage with short barrel reliability and adverse conditions. They tend to also be less picky with ammo and reliability. However I generally prefer better accuracy over the piston benefits. I usually shoot a 16” AR15 and 20-24” AR10 so the piston benefits with shorter barrels don’t apply to me. Not being able to use suppressors also negates one of the benefits.

Generally I stick with DI. The ADCOR is a very interesting hybrid. Why do I think it’s so great? DI accuracy and excellent reliability. Check out the testing that’s been done. If your search skills are good you will see some interesting results from owners, independent testing and the military trials. The only other piston AR I’ve bought is an HK MR308A3 28. I simply wanted one.

I think you are mistaken about my posts regarding my thoughts on DI vs piston. I likely won’t get a badger due to it being a piston system and BCL not being forthcoming on specs etc. plus I actually already have a number of non restricted purposely built piston 223 rifles. I don’t see the BCL doing anything different other than lower cost and lower quality. as mentioned there are very few piston AR rifles that interest me. ADCOR because they did something unique and HK because it’s HK and completes my collection. Otherwise my AR rifles are all DI!

I see these rifles competing against the 180 rifles. The 180 has never been on my must buy list. Interesting to follow the threads but that’s about it. Similarly to the Badger for me. In reality if the AR was non restricted I would own far fewer firearms.

 

[JaredP]

its pretty simple. You're saying that the AR is superior to all other piston driven semi-autos. I'm pointing out that you are an idiot for saying so. As stated: each design comes with its pros and cons. I'd Still take a tavor over an AR most days, because I feel more comfortable with the set of benefits and drawbacks that it provides when compared to the AR. Plus clearing my basement is way faster with a bullpup.

So your go-to argument is "why consider the pros-cons of either system, just shoot a completely different rifle if you want to shoot precisely", fantastic.

Both systems have their pros and cons, of course. But my entire argument is that the "pros" of a barrel-mounted piston design are entirely washed out by the major cons they bring. On the contrary, the benefits of a "piston-in-carrier" or "bolt-as-piston" conventional AR15 far exceed their observed disadvantages. You are being intellectually lazy and ignoring my point. You've regressed your argument to simply sitting in the middle.

Neither would the AR. Free floating is a meme.

you gotta stop discrediting yourself man. An AR15 is effectively "free-floated" with a rigidly affixed, non-reciprocating gas block and gas tube. They are in the exact same position shot-to-shot. With a barrel mounted piston, harmonics alter each shot with each microscopically different seating arrangement of the piston in it's cup. You're also not doing yourself any credit with the "meme" BS. This isn't 4chan or reddit. You sound like a 17 year old.

 

[King0265]

All this BCL 102 trash talk. I just bought one and haven’t shot it yet and now I’m scared.
I’ve had many NEA/BCL products with no complaints. Some of us can only afford kraft dinner. So let us try to enjoy our cheap guns and support a Canadian company. You have to remember, they haven’t been in the game for that long compared to some of the other brands. Mine seems well built and hoping for the best.

 

[Foxer2373]

All this BCL 102 trash talk. I just bought one and haven’t shot it yet and now I’m scared.
I’ve had many NEA/BCL products with no complaints. Some of us can only afford kraft dinner. So let us try to enjoy our cheap guns and support a Canadian company. You have to remember, they haven’t been in the game for that long compared to some of the other brands. Mine seems well built and hoping for the best.

2 massive issues.... first their QC is a joke!!! Don’t have to be a big company or in it for a long time to have this... some of what has come from them has been laughable. Second, the BCL102 started at $1750 (with a bunch of issues) now they are going for 1250Demo) to $1325(inventory clear out). These two things are related and the only reason they charged 1750 was they were first to market and then got crushed by competition so price fell out the bottom.

These are valid points not bashing a Canadian cheap option.

 

[Tarrantula]

I already wasn't a fan of the squared off upper receivers and detailing, this just takes it to a whole other level. Why not forget the looks stuff and focus on improving QC and reliability issues?

An affordable, quality, classic Canadian made AR15 and parts would sell like hotcakes, instead they pour time and money into making it look "cool" and "unique"

 

[ThatM305Guy]

So your go-to argument is "why consider the pros-cons of either system, just shoot a completely different rifle if you want to shoot precisely", fantastic. Lol dude that is literally the exact opposite of what I said. Go back and read it again.

Both systems have their pros and cons, of course. But my entire argument is that in my opinion the "pros" of a barrel-mounted piston design are entirely washed out by the major cons they bring. On the contrary, the benefits of a "piston-in-carrier" or "bolt-as-piston" conventional AR15 in my opinnion far exceed their observed disadvantages. You are being intellectually lazy and ignoring my point. You've regressed your argument to simply sitting in the middle.
Wtf are you talking about? I was never advocating for either side. I was pointing out that your OPINION that DI is always the best option is a stupid position because its untrue. But hey, I guess the U.S military should have consulted you before they adopted the SCAR. Also the M27 (HK416) I guess the french should have contacted you so you could also talk them out of the HK416 in favor of the holy grail (ar15) of small arms design. You have been trying to argue me into a piston only position, which is not the case. I like both, and for different reasons. I'm just pointing out that you are fangirling, and being attacked in return.


you gotta stop discrediting yourself man. An AR15 is effectively "free-floated" with a rigidly affixed, non-reciprocating gas block and gas tube. They are in the exact same position shot-to-shot. With a barrel mounted piston, harmonics alter each shot with each microscopically different seating arrangement of the piston in it's cup. You're also not doing yourself any credit with the "meme" BS. This isn't 4chan or reddit. You sound like a 17 year old. I would argue CGN is worse lol. I was very obviously trolling you.

brb, mom says my chicken nuggies are ready.

 

[JaredP]

Lol dude that is literally the exact opposite of what I said. Go back and read it again.

Were you not just advocating that I "just shoot a bolt action" because I wanted a precise, semi-automatic firearm?

I like both, and for different reasons. I'm just pointing out that you are fangirling, and being attacked in return.

You're the one "fangirling". You're appealing to authority rather than evaluating the objective properties of either system.

I was very obviously trolling you.

classic

 

[ThatM305Guy]

Were you not just advocating that I "just shoot a bolt action" because I wanted a precise, semi-automatic firearm? I was using an extreme example to illustrate a point. How are you this thick?



You're the one "fangirling". You're appealing to authority rather than evaluating the objective properties of either system. honestly I'm not sure there is another way fr me to explain this to you in a different way. Again. Seriously.



classic

Oh man how have I not seen this. Amazing ahahahaha

 

[King0265]

 

[Suther]

Pretty much this. It's funny that people get so incredibly uppity about how amazing DI is, and everything else is such ####, blah blah....there is only 1 widespread design in history that is DI.......and it's the AR. EVERYTHING else is piston driven. Like the 416, AK, ACR, etc etc...

Saying one or the other sucks for x reason is idiotic as they are both good for different reasons. I personally think that the DI has advantages in extreme cold weather because of the way it heats up the action after the first couple rounds.

But this is the internet.....so if you dont agree with me then you are obviously the stupidest person in the world because I totally know what I'm talking about.

Actually, the AR isn't even a true DI gun. It's a short stroke piston design, with the bolt/carrier doing the job of the piston/cylinder... And there are lots of short stroke gas piston systems, the SKS is one example.

For a true DI gun you've got to look at things like the Swedish AG42B... Nobody makes a true DI gun these days, at least that I'm aware of.

 

[ThatM305Guy]

Actually, the AR isn't even a true DI gun. It's a short stroke piston design, with the bolt/carrier doing the job of the piston/cylinder... And there are lots of short stroke gas piston systems, the SKS is one example.

For a true DI gun you've got to look at things like the Swedish AG42B... Nobody makes a true DI gun these days, at least that I'm aware of.

True. But for ease of discussion it's easier just to refer to it as DI

 

[7.62mm]

I love these mental masturbation threads...

 

[Suther]

True. But for ease of discussion it's easier just to refer to it as DI

Easier does not make it right. I love how gun owners will go on a tirade over the whole clip vs magazine thing, but it's ok to call a gun that's not really DI a DI gun "because it's easier"...

 

[HotSoup]

Actually, the AR isn't even a true DI gun. It's a short stroke piston design, with the bolt/carrier doing the job of the piston/cylinder... And there are lots of short stroke gas piston systems, the SKS is one example.

For a true DI gun you've got to look at things like the Swedish AG42B... Nobody makes a true DI gun these days, at least that I'm aware of.

Short stroke piston would require a tappet system, which the AR doesnt have. Its DI

 

[Suther]

Short stroke piston would require a tappet system, which the AR doesnt have. Its DI

Stoner would disagree.

In U.S. Patent 2,951,424, the designer states: ″This invention is a true expanding gas system instead of the conventional impinging gas system.″

The gas does not directly impinge on the bolt carrier, it travels into the carrier which then pushes on the bolt. The bolt and bolt carrier are your tappet system. A true DI system would be causing the action to cycle by hitting to bolt carrier with gas, which it does not. For the AR to be a real DI gun, you wouldn't need things like gas rings on the bolt, nor would you need a gas key to route the gas into the carrier.

If you plug your gas key, does the AR still function? No? Then I propose it is not a true DI gun.