Canadian Armys "Interm Pistol Program"

ShootMeStraight said:
No matter what the CAF gets they won’t take care of it properly. I’m not combat arms so I’m not sure how it works but does a rifleman use the same rifle for every range visit/exercise/deployment so they can properly take care of their own?
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These aren't jets, we rely on our small arms with our lives. Better believe they're well taken care of. Used hard isn't the same thing as neglected.

Where small arms get abused is on course, with idiotic things like scraping the crown as mentioned above. Thankfully the training establishment weapons aren't the ones going to war.
 
OntarioTim said:
I'm at 22 Wing and I get the boys and girls in blue on the range as often as they want. The gear and the training is available if they are interested.
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Why? That's like a combat arms guy playing in a flight sim for fun. No point at all. By the time 22 Wing is doing any shooting, we'll all have gone all Wolverines in the hills anyway. Amazing we have a system that allocates ammo to radar screen watchers while the infantry is short.
 
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Slavex said:
at this point just take a hat, throw in 2 pieces of paper, one has Glock 19 on it the other Sig 320. Reach in pull out winner. Done. Spending any money duplicating tests done by literally dozens and dozens of other militaries and agencies is a waste of of it. They could even just ask for the entire in depth trial info from the US, Germany, Norway etc etc etc and use those results to determine the winner. But the hat method would be quicker.
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Oh but no, we have a special arctic environment! That makes us special and unique so we need years and years of trials, even though we never actually deploy there except for short exercises...

"Wait. What? Who uses what for what now? Special forces patrolling for months at a time in the Arctic?"

 
flashman2 said:
Why? That's like a combat arms guy playing in a flight sim for fun. No point at all. By the time 22 Wing is doing any shooting, we'll all have gone all Wolverines in the hills anyway. Amazing we have a system that allocates ammo to radar screen watchers while the infantry is short.
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You missed the memo? “We’re all soldiers first!” :rolleyes:

As for why, if I offered you a few hours of Sim time would you decline? What about a flight in a high-performance jet? So when I’m offered a bunch of ammo it’s a safe bet I’m not returning any.

As for the replacement pistol; smaller and lighter is better because I have no intention of ever using it.
 
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flashman2 said:
Nah, but I AM a total hypocrite. If I had an ammo allocation, damn sure I'd burn it up too. My butt hurt is with allocating the ammo in the first place.
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Can’t disagree with that, particularly if Battalion’s are short. Sad part is this stuff is so common none of it surprises me anymore. Just shrug my shoulders and shake my head.
 
TT1900 said:
Can’t disagree with that, particularly if Battalion’s are short. Sad part is this stuff is so common none of it surprises me anymore. Just shrug my shoulders and shake my head.
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It's ok. When an actual war kicks off the floodgates open and it's "turn taxpayer's dollars into noise and heat" time.
 
TT1900 said:
As for why, if I offered you a few hours of Sim time would you decline? What about a flight in a high-performance jet? So when I’m offered a bunch of ammo it’s a safe bet I’m not returning any.
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I have been offered, and I took every advantage. That's why I say I'm a total hypocrite Laugh2

The difference is the sim time or flight hours weren't allocated to a ground unit at the expense of a zoomie unit.

Heck I'd take a flight in a low performance glider for that matter...
 
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OntarioTim said:
I'm at 22 Wing and I get the boys and girls in blue on the range as often as they want. The gear and the training is available if they are interested.
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I know you guys have a shooting club right on the base. Members are also allowed to sign out service weaopns? Even ammo?
 
I am on the executive of the shooting club and a base RSO. Service personnel are welcome to come out to the club anytime and use club and personal firearms (we even cover the ammo!). They are only required to qualify in the sSAT annually and live fire every three years, but, we can arrange for live fire on C7 and 9mm for anyone interested. The problem is they just aren't interested in doing more than the minimum. There are a few really good shooters, but, many barely pass the qualifications when they come due.
 
OntarioTim said:
I am on the executive of the shooting club and a base RSO. Service personnel are welcome to come out to the club anytime and use club and personal firearms (we even cover the ammo!). They are only required to qualify in the sSAT annually and live fire every three years, but, we can arrange for live fire on C7 and 9mm for anyone interested. The problem is they just aren't interested in doing more than the minimum. There are a few really good shooters, but, many barely pass the qualifications when they come due.
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So members with their own firearms who join the club can they shoot whenever they want during daylight hours? Or can you only go certain times when a RO is present?
 
CZ85Combat said:
Nope, that would break a few rules...
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Wut? What rules? I've signed out a rifle and pistol tons of times, for BFT workups, taking the rifle team shooting, taking myself shooting, conducting training, etc etc. There's no issue with it whatsoever if the CO authorizes it. Even transporting by POMV is perfectly fine.

The real wrinkle is you need the appropriate CF vehicle that meets all the requirements to transport ammo, and someone who's published as an RSO. Those requirements make a spur of the moment trip to the range by one person effectively impossible. But I've definitely booked a range, booked ammo and gone shooting for the day with a few soldiers when we had nothing else to do.

Is there really a unit where soldiers (or airmen I guess) aren't trusted by the CO to sign out weapons and go shooting?
 
flashman2 said:
Wut? What rules? I've signed out a rifle and pistol tons of times, for BFT workups, taking the rifle team shooting, taking myself shooting, conducting training, etc etc. There's no issue with it whatsoever if the CO authorizes it. Even transporting by POMV is perfectly fine.

The real wrinkle is you need the appropriate CF vehicle that meets all the requirements to transport ammo, and someone who's published as an RSO. Those requirements make a spur of the moment trip to the range by one person effectively impossible. But I've definitely booked a range, booked ammo and gone shooting for the day with a few soldiers when we had nothing else to do.

Is there really a unit where soldiers (or airmen I guess) aren't trusted by the CO to sign out weapons and go shooting?
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Generally, any combat unit at small level. Smallest I have seen is section level for work up training and we still had to book a week in advance and had to produce a very details shooting plans due to the amount of ammo requested. Usually we conduct ranges at company level running one platoon at the time with little to no freedom about how those rounds are spent.

I'm glad (and jealous) that the personnel at 22 Wings gets to shoot as often as they want because it sure isn't the case where I am.
 
DT741 said:
Generally, any combat unit at small level. Smallest I have seen is section level for work up training and we still had to book a week in advance and had to produce a very details shooting plans due to the amount of ammo requested. Usually we conduct ranges at company level running one platoon at the time with little to no freedom about how those rounds are spent.

I'm glad (and jealous) that the personnel at 22 Wings gets to shoot as often as they want because it sure isn't the case where I am.
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For sure, 90% of the time that's how you do your shooting; sub unit or unit ranges, no question.

And there's not always the time or ammo available to do what I'm talking about.

But that's my point - THOSE are the constraints, not some directive or rule somewhere that says you can't sign out a rifle as an individual. Certainly not in DAODs, CFAOs, QR&Os or in any area directives or base or unit standing orders that I've ever seen. There's no issue with it whatsoever, unless the CO or commander makes it one. The real barrier is the rank level you need to actually use the things, meaning an RSO of some sort at a minimum.

As far as just signing out a weapon though, I've never known that to be an issue at any of the units I've worked at. Indeed I'd even say it's common practice at HQs where you do PT on your own time, and you need one for BFT workup. I couldn't count the number of times I've grabbed a buddy or a soldier of mine, signed out our rifles and gone and marched our little hearts out. Including off base in major urban centers.
 
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