Tripods and gear.....From a match directors point of view

[APS]

Hi Guys,
So I for those that don’t know me and many probably don’t, my name is Adam and I am the current President of Wild Rose Action Shooters an Edmonton based precision rifle club. For the last few years we have been hosting precision rifle style matches. Prior to our home range being shut down, we were a 3-gun club for 12 years.
With the explosion of PRS style events naturally there are growing pains. On such thing is the gear race. Having been involved in 3 gun for a number of years I understand the race and have also chased the latest and greatest ‘hotness’ for the month.
Having attended some matches and hosting our own I seen one thing that I’m in the air about as a match director but see the other side as a shooter. Some matches I go to the shooters have the ability to pre set a tripod before a stage. So those who are in the lead of the gear race have a distinct advantage but those who are not struggle a bit. It’s not a matter for me of afford and etc, I’m in the option that if you want to use an item that gives a distinct advantage you should have to employ that on the clock. No presetting so when you get to the line all you have to do is set up your rifle.
Some will argue that it’s “run what you brung” and fair enough if you can afford it, use it. I don’t like the fact that shooters are able to gain a distinct advantage over others.

The second thing is the Grotesque amount of bags. Don’t get me wrong, I use them and they definitely have a purpose. The thing I don’t like is bringing about 5 different bags to the line and throwing them at the prop that they are going to be used at so that at the end of the stage it looks like a yard sale of kit. I feel that you should have to keep your bags with you at all times or at least at an arms reach.

Personally, WRAS is trying to be a little more grass roots, forcing the shooter to focus on the marksmanship fundamentals rather than the latest trinket. I think we are going to have shooters deploy on the clock and limit the amount of bags. I am writing our new rule set, that’s why the post.

What’s everyone’s thoughts here. No right or wrong answer. Just looking to spur a conversation on the topic.

Adam
President WRAS

 

[call2arms]

Seems like a reasonable compromise.

 

[odsixer]

What about an “open gear” division, and a “rifle and one rear bag” division. Appeals to the purists as well as the gear junkies.

 

[rgv]

Arguing with the anti-gear crowd is like arguing with anti-gunners.

They are determined to assign credit to inanimate objects when the result is 100% due to the man.

The guy that practices with the tripod and bags will use them efficiently and to his advantage and the guys that didn’t will look like a drunk guy trying to get into a folding camp chair beside a campfire.

Just for fun, run one of your matches completely limited gear. Bipod without extensions, sling and one rear bag. Same guys will win, in fact the spread will increase.

 

[coyoteking]

I’m very interested in competing in PRS but the use of tripods is a huge turnoff for me. Why not limit it to bipods and shooting sticks, like you would expect to see in real world shooting situations?

I like what you are proposing otherwise.

 

[APS]

Arguing with the anti-gear crowd is like arguing with anti-gunners.

They are determined to assign credit to inanimate objects when the result is 100% due to the man.

The guy that practices with the tripod and bags will use them efficiently and to his advantage and the guys that didn’t will look like a drunk guy trying to get into a folding camp chair beside a campfire.

Just for fun, run one of your matches completely limited gear. Bipod without extensions, sling and one rear bag. Same guys will win.

I’m not saying that the guys using the gear don’t practice marksmanship or anything like that, Because truth is that most of those guys practice everything and execute it well. I’m also not against using gear. I just don’t think setting up before you get to the line is necessarily keeping things even.

 

[rgv]

I’m not saying that the guys using the gear don’t practice marksmanship or anything like that, Because truth is that most of those guys practice everything and execute it well. I’m also not against using gear. I just don’t think setting up before you get to the line is necessarily keeping things even.

But doesn’t allowing pre-staging of gear help the starter and mid-level shooter more than the experienced guy?

 

[APS]

But doesn’t allowing pre-staging of gear help the starter and mid-level shooter more than the experienced guy?

Well I guess that is a valid statement. But if we all do it on the clock won’t it push those same shooters to practice more so they don’t look like the drunk guy with a lawn chair?

I see both sides of the argument here. I appreciate your input, as it’s a view I didn’t think much about.

 

[JayCarver]

My thoughts for what its worth(not much) allow tri-pods but must be set up on the clock.

As for bags, run whatever you brought.

 

[rgv]

Well I guess that is a valid statement. But if we all do it on the clock won’t it push those same shooters to practice more so they don’t look like the drunk guy with a lawn chair?

You’d think getting shellacked should be all one needs to be pushed to practice. Some won’t feel that push and that’s their place too.

Most (all?) of the guys who complain about the non existent gear race do not and never will shoot anyway.

Fwiw I think all gear should be in hand on the line but only because it removes any ambiguity regarding what’s allowed and what isn’t.

 

[APS]

You’d think getting shellacked should be all one needs to be pushed to practice. Some won’t feel that push and that’s their place too.

Most (all?) of the guys who complain about the non existent gear race do not and never will shoot anyway.

Fwiw I think all gear should be in hand on the line but only because it removes any ambiguity regarding what’s allowed and what isn’t.

All good points. And yes, all gear should be in hand at the line.

We haven’t restricted gear or their use in general. We have designed stages with gear limitations to push fundamentals. Those stages tend to get good reviews from all shooters, forcing the good guys down a peg and really challenging the new shooters.

 

[Ryan.M.Anderson]

I’m very interested in competing in PRS but the use of tripods is a huge turnoff for me. Why not limit it to bipods and shooting sticks, like you would expect to see in real world shooting situations?

I like what you are proposing otherwise.

Tripods are used in real shooting circumstances all the times. Literally all of the time.

You dont need to spend tonnes to one either. Lots of options at different price levels.

You should just come out to a match -- guaranteed someone will let you use theirs if a stage needs one.

 

[coyoteking]

Tripods are used in real shooting circumstances all the times. Literally all of the time.

Really? Outside of heavy machine guns in the military , where are all these tripods being used?

They don’t seem very practical to me, especially if they take so long to set up that the work needs to be done before the stage begins.

 

[rgv]

Really? Outside of heavy machine guns in the military , where are all these tripods being used?

They don’t seem very practical to me, especially if they take so long to set up that the work needs to be done before the stage begins.

Fun fact for guys who think tripods are only used by gamers at prs matches;

The hog saddle made by shadow tech has an NSN. Google what those are and draw your own conclusion.

 

[Fore300]

I do think any equipment has to be carried to the line and deployed on the clock. I think the tripod can have legs extended etc but carried to the fireline. I am not worried about the bags but I typically only see guys using a game changer and maybe a pump pillow so I likely haven't had the same experiences

 

[onetwentyish]

Really? Outside of heavy machine guns in the military , where are all these tripods being used?

They don’t seem very practical to me, especially if they take so long to set up that the work needs to be done before the stage begins.

Mostly in a snipers nest set up it seems. They have also become a mainstay for security atbig public sporting events in stadiums and such. They have their place, and are generally set up before the action begins, so I personally would say matches should occassionally allow the tripod to be set up in a specific area on a stage if they have one before the shooter begins shooting the stage.

 

[Ryan.M.Anderson]

Really? Outside of heavy machine guns in the military , where are all these tripods being used?

They don’t seem very practical to me, especially if they take so long to set up that the work needs to be done before the stage begins.

As RGV said all you need to do is head over to hogsaddle.com and check out their gallery.

They also do not take that long to deploy. I can go from undeployed to a kneeling/sitting position with my gun locked in in probably about 15 seconds. The bonus is that I can actually hit something this way unlike most other positions.

 

[Ryan.M.Anderson]

I was also a MD (retired now) and have known Adam for a few years now. I have ran a few matches and seen all sorts.

My viewpoint differs though, run what you want, for most guys they will drown under their gear. I remember a couple of years ago you would see guys with several bags (rear bag, barricade bag, pump pillow, tac pac, etc.) - I think now most people are down to a bag or two. Personally I run a OG GC and I used to have a separate rear bag but it was stolen at my last match. I should replace that.

My thoughts on gear are this. The guys who win don't use that much gear. If you make them deploy on the clock then everyone else will deploy on the clock. Overall scores will probably go down but the winners will still win and the point spread will be there.

As long as everyone plays by the same rules it doesnt really matter. Enforce them evenly and fairly. Everyone has a chance to game - if you didn't think of a new way to tackle a stage that doesn't make the other person a gamer - it makes them a better problem solver.

Everyone here likes to think we are super duper cool snipers guys and spout "Think, Adapt, Overcome". Well everyone, pull up your huggies and do it - if someone does this better than you go out and practice. No one is stopping you from shooting like Jake Vibbert (a well know "Gamer"). No one is preventing you from thinking outside the box.

I will paraphrase what Ryan Castle (Former Infantryman, and Former Director of the PRS). The most "Tactical" thing out there is shooting the other guy first - do what you need to do that and stop worrying what everyone else is doing.

 

[Tokay444]

I’m very interested in competing in PRS but the use of tripods is a huge turnoff for me. Why not limit it to bipods and shooting sticks, like you would expect to see in real world shooting situations?

I like what you are proposing otherwise.

You don't think real world snipers have tripods?

https : //www.google.com/search?q=military+sniper+tripod&rlz=1C1GCEU_en-GBCA821CA821&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi1s_PV4pDgAhWLnoMKHSMUC3EQ_AUIDygC&biw=1920&bih=938#imgrc=nYU-o_e0eSQstM:

 

[twosmokinspades]

I personally like more of a purist match. You get 1 bag and what's on the gun when you start. With that said I don't mind other matches. I have always liked you setup on the clock no pre staging of any kind. As a match director you an set up a match any way you want. Make it so tripods are of no advantage. I have been to matches where it seemed like every other stage was of a tripod. I personally don't like shooting of a tripod and will do as much as I can so I don't have to use the thing.