"Service Rifle-Classic" Division at NSCC

[FTRRookie]

ATTN Service Rifle Shooters!

At our recent Service Conditions Committee meeting it was proposed that the DCRA offer an additional classification in the Open division of the Service Rifle Championships.

The "SR-Classic" class is intended for those in the Open class who are interested in shooting something closer to what is/was issued to the CAF. The following conditions would need to be met to qualify for SR-Classic:

For .223/5.56
- Bullet must be FMJ and less than 70gr,
- Limited to open or optical sights not exceeding 4X,
- Only standard flash hiders permitted, no brakes or compensators
- Trigger weight shall be in accordance with rule 5.03 6.a (2kg for semi-auto / 1.5 kg for bolt). No adjustable match triggers.

For .308/7.62
- Bullet must be FMJ and less than 149 gr,
- Limited to open or optical sights not exceeding 4X,
- Only standard flash hiders permitted, no brakes or compensators
- Trigger weight shall be in accordance with rule 5.03 6.a (2kg for semi-auto / 1.5 kg for bolt). No adjustable match triggers.

If this were offered at NSCC would you be interested in shooting it?

 

[tiriaq]

A flash hider with a solid bottom does act as a brake.
Doesn't the 2kg minimum already apply to all autoloading rifles?
Would a variable scope be acceptable if the power adjustment ring were sealed at 4X or less?

 

[NB.nagantsniper]

ATTN Service Rifle Shooters!

At our recent Service Conditions Committee meeting it was proposed that the DCRA offer an additional classification in the Open division of the Service Rifle Championships.

The "SR-Classic" class is intended for those in the Open class who are interested in shooting something closer to what is/was issued to the CAF. The following conditions would need to be met to qualify for SR-Classic:

For .223/5.56
- Bullet must be FMJ and less than 70gr,
- Limited to open or optical sights not exceeding 4X,
- Only standard flash hiders permitted, no brakes or compensators
- Trigger weight shall be in accordance with rule 5.03 6.a (2kg for semi-auto / 1.5 kg for bolt). No adjustable match triggers.

For .308/7.62
- Bullet must be FMJ and less than 149 gr,
- Limited to open or optical sights not exceeding 4X,
- Only standard flash hiders permitted, no brakes or compensators
- Trigger weight shall be in accordance with rule 5.03 6.a (2kg for semi-auto / 1.5 kg for bolt). No adjustable match triggers.

If this were offered at NSCC would you be interested in shooting it?

if set up it would be worth looking into what CLASSIC rifles are to be considered ( nato only or any milsurp with stated guidelines ?)

 

[tiriaq]

This past season, there were 133 shooters who shot Matches 1 through 16. 10 were Open competitors; 123 were CAF/RCMP.
This proposal would create three classes: CAF/RCMP; Open and Open Classic. Two classes for 10 competitors?
Unless a lot more Open class competitors were to be recruited, splitting the Open entrants into two groups wouldn't make much sense.
There has been murmuring about having to compete against "space guns" with issue type (i.e. classic) rifles, scopes and ammunition.
Would there be enough additional competitors interested in shooting "classic" to justify splitting the Open classification? Would more competitors be attracted? Enough to warrant three sets of prizes?
Easy enough to put an Elcan on top of a rifle and pick up some LC 62gr green tip. But how many competitors would do this?

 

[Shelldrake]

Would there be enough additional competitors interested in shooting "classic" to justify splitting the Open classification? Would more competitors be attracted? Enough to warrant three sets of prizes?
Easy enough to put an Elcan on top of a rifle and pick up some LC 62gr green tip. But how many competitors would do this?

Yes, just 10 in the Open Class. Pretty low number for a national championship.
So,, how to attract more civilian shooters? That is the intent for establishing this "classic" category.
There has been lots of "talk" and "murmuring" about competing against "space guns".
FTR Rookie is starting the conversation on this issue here,, to see if it is worth their effort and expense to establish this new class at NSCC.
I'm not fully sold on it, but it may be worthwhile to give it a try for a year or two, if only to silence the "murmuring".

PS: Of the 10 in the Open Class, at least 2 were shooting rifles/ammo/optics that would have fit into this "classic" class.

 

[Shelldrake]

Doesn't the 2kg minimum already apply to all autoloading rifles?

Yes, the weight already applies.
The intent here, is to restrict the trigger to "as-issued".
No two or single stage aftermarket match type triggers would be allowed.
The wording may need to be tidied up, as there are "non-adjustable" match triggers available and being used.

 

[greentips]

Yes, just 10 in the Open Class. Pretty low number for a national championship.
So,, how to attract more civilian shooters? That is the intent for establishing this "classic" category.
There has been lots of "talk" and "murmuring" about competing against "space guns".
FTR Rookie is starting the conversation on this issue here,, to see if it is worth their effort and expense to establish this new class at NSCC.
I'm not fully sold on it, but may it may be worthwhile to give it a try for a year or two, if only to silence the "murmuring".

PS: Of the 10 in the Open Class, at least 2 were shooting rifles/ammo/optics that would have fit into this "classic" class.

People vote with their attendance. Obviously, it is not popular for reasons beyond the tweaking of "equipment" class. SVC is like the PPC of the pistol world - no one shoots PPC anymore because 3-gun and USPSA/IPSC attract all the people. The game awards people who master the few repetitions at a set pace at the same range every year - you cannot challenge yourself with faster speed, different tactics or more diverse skill sets. The same thing is happening to the "old " PR matches - PRS is the future ( and actually present), but at least PR serves a role because it is the skill builder to get into PRS. There is nothing beyond SVC once the repetitions are mastered - it becomes the same old thing again.

SVC will only survive in the long run if there is a PRS version of service rifle, so there is a reason to feed people through SVC so they can progress to "field fire". Think about it, it is like going to PWT3 so people can move on to the jungle lane. PWT3 without jungle lane means everyone is always at the "beginner" level, after awhile it is just a "thing" to do.

People these days are not into competing to reach the standard, they like to compete against each other directly.

 

[tiriaq]

The traditional NSCC course of fire is outstanding from the standpoint of developing shooting skills. A shooter who excels here will be able to do well in other shooting disciplines.

 

[Cpt.Flan]

We where 10. I WAS one of them. More very competitive shooters will not shoot NSCC in 2019 or anymore.

It's already a 4 man race. Split that in 2. Good luck with that.

Great spot. Great old traditional matches. Probably one of the best place and event to train for CAFSAC or to learn and have a good time. ( indications system etc... )

I would try to recruit more shooters instead of altering the formula...

I am done with NSCC.

Wish you the best.

 

[Cpt.Flan]

People vote with their attendance. Obviously, it is not popular for reasons beyond the tweaking of "equipment" class. SVC is like the PPC of the pistol world - no one shoots PPC anymore because 3-gun and USPSA/IPSC attract all the people. The game awards people who master the few repetitions at a set pace at the same range every year - you cannot challenge yourself with faster speed, different tactics or more diverse skill sets. The same thing is happening to the "old " PR matches - PRS is the future ( and actually present), but at least PR serves a role because it is the skill builder to get into PRS. There is nothing beyond SVC once the repetitions are mastered - it becomes the same old thing again.

SVC will only survive in the long run if there is a PRS version of service rifle, so there is a reason to feed people through SVC so they can progress to "field fire". Think about it, it is like going to PWT3 so people can move on to the jungle lane. PWT3 without jungle lane means everyone is always at the "beginner" level, after awhile it is just a "thing" to do.

People these days are not into competing to reach the standard, they like to compete against each other directly.

Agreed. But NSCC formula WILL NEVER change till CAFSAC change first. And That could take a while.... I remember in 2012 at cafsac. They where already talking about making it more " operational " shooting... Well I am still waiting.

 

[greentips]

Putting aside what the CF needs and what the CF should do, the whole CAFSAC, NSCC and SVC in general need some rethinking. It is a sign that the PR people are actually leap frogging ahead of SVC by quickly adopting PRS. The main stream competitive shooting sports have moved away from a highly choreographed, "lining up a lot of people and shooting at the same things at the same time in positions dictated by the rule book", format long time ago.

If the rifle associations are not moving, others will. Look at what Morgan and the group in Petawawa are doing - they are trying to innovate within the restrictions of the typical CF range. That is the way to bring changes, not to see what CAFSAC is going to do because you aren't seeing anything before hitting factor 85.

PRS at Meaford puts 120+competitors through 20 stages in 2 days - and people are let go at 1630. So the number of people is not a justification for the current format. There is more than 1 way to run the sausage grinder.

In my opinion, the quickest way for SVC to evolve is to copy the PRS match format using IPSC style scoring (comstock instead of par time). Change/add/edit/tweak the target sizes, ranges and stage details. Look at what they do with 3 gun in the US, they are hitting out to 400 to 500 yards in an action format, so SVC in its current form doesn't have exclusive "skill set" over that kind of distance. Other people do as well, and probably do it faster without sighters.

 

[Gunnerlove]

I think M1-12 are the bones that SR shooters need to figure out how to shoot. Different matches can offer different challenges but if you are shooting in the 400s you are not going to beat me when things get faster and harder.

 

[Longshot]

I think M1-12 are the bones that SR shooters need to figure out how to shoot. Different matches can offer different challenges but if you are shooting in the 400s you are not going to beat me when things get faster and harder.

Exactly. Lots of beaking here by some who can't even master these very basic service rifle match skill sets. Run before you can walk if you want. Won't help when you get to more complicated and faster matches and you'll be eaten alive by people who HAVE mastered them. If mediocre results is what you are happy with carry on in this direction. There IS another path though...
Matt Q is a perfect example out here on the west coast. SR shooter. CF national team guy. NO ONE is really even close to touching him at the ARL CQB matches. He dominates. Why? Solid grasp of the basics, positional shooting, time and mental management. Where did he learn that? Service rifle.
Certain things will help though. A solid grasp on basic marksmanship. A solid grasp on positional shooting. A solid grasp on making good wind calls, the processes of firing a perfect shot and managing yourself during a match will help every time. THAT is what these matches provide. These matches provide that for service rifle shooters sure... but strangely they cross over to 3 gun, they cross over to CQB, they cross over to PRS (both centerfire AND rimfire) and im sure they cross over to others I haven't thought of. If you have these skills you can go anywhere and use these skills to do very well in any type of shooting.
Not having to compare yourself to someone shooting a "spacegun"(even though the tool really doesn't matter) might help people in some way. It can't hurt. Why not? I'm all for it if it helps bring people in.
BUT perhaps some actual advertising would help attract more people instead of relying on word of mouth. The word HAS to be put out there via modern channels like social media/video etc. There are tons of rifle shooters who just don't know that this type of shooting exists in Canada.
The only person people ACTUALLY compete against is themselves. You may compare yourself to someone else but guess what you are doing? Comparing yourself to a standard. lol. Standards have to be set by someone. Why not gain everything you can and become the one that sets the standard?

 

[Gunnerlove]

Everyone I have trained (including Matt) will tell you I am like a broken record. "You need to master the basics before you can build on them".
I think people are naturaly afraid of competition and they become more afraid if there is a long-term pecking order in place. Having a class other than the one with the guy who has won it 5 years in a row might be good. Ryan is correct though in that the lack of advertising is the real killer for attendance.

 

[rgv]

Everyone I have trained (including Matt) will tell you I am like a broken record. "You need to master the basics before you can build on them".
I think people are naturaly afraid of competition and they become more afraid if there is a long-term pecking order in place. Having a class other than the one with the guy who has won it 5 years in a row might be good. Ryan is correct though in that the lack of advertising is the real killer for attendance.

I think more than just advertising is required to grow SR.

The lack of matches open to civilians, at least out west pretty much eliminates the growth of a core of shooters that a small percentage of will venture out to a National Championship.

How many SR matches are open to civilians in a year with the ORA?

 

[tiriaq]

All of them - but the 2019 schedule doesn't seem to be posted yet. Is the NSCC course of fire used by the ORA?

To attend the Nationals, a competitor must be able to commit at least a week at the end of September.
And has to have to opportunity to practice, and must have the motivation to develop the skill set.

 

[njohnson]

I tried SR for the first time in BC last year and loved it, I shot a lot of static but long range TR for years before, and dabbled in limited US style NMC shooting.

Canadian SR gave me a whole bunch of new challenges in terms of positional shooting, time constraints etc. And the equipment rules allowed me to shoot what I wanted, which was basically an American style DCM gun(hidden float tube, HB, Geiselle trigger) but with a ACOG- so not an unlimited gun, but not a stock C7 either. Like others said, you shoot against your self not others per se.

Looking back what probably kept me out of the game in the years past was the ability to try out the COF or get any practice before hand, the schedule often looked like 2 big local matches a year and that’s it. I know it’s easy to expect others to put in the hard and often thankless work of setting up new shooter clinics and practice sessions, but some form of introductory sessions might ease the uninitiated into the sport.

In the end I researched the COF, made up scaled down targets and practiced the positional components via dry fire in the hallway at home but others might see the practical benefit of that.

I don’t know if SR practices could be carried out using reduced targets on a 100 m private range, timed on a whistle? That might also entice the Carbine crowd who are hesitant to attempt 500 meters to give it a try. At the very least it still requires most of the fundamental skills.

Just my thoughts.....

 

[Longshot]

I tried SR for the first time in BC last year and loved it, I shot a lot of static but long range TR for years before, and dabbled in limited US style NMC shooting.

Canadian SR gave me a whole bunch of new challenges in terms of positional shooting, time constraints etc. And the equipment rules allowed me to shoot what I wanted, which was basically an American style DCM gun(hidden float tube, HB, Geiselle trigger) but with a ACOG- so not an unlimited gun, but not a stock C7 either. Like others said, you shoot against your self not others per se.

Looking back what probably kept me out of the game in the years past was the ability to try out the COF or get any practice before hand, the schedule often looked like 2 big local matches a year and that’s it. I know it’s easy to expect others to put in the hard and often thankless work of setting up new shooter clinics and practice sessions, but some form of introductory sessions might ease the uninitiated into the sport.

In the end I researched the COF, made up scaled down targets and practiced the positional components via dry fire in the hallway at home but others might see the practical benefit of that.

I don’t know if SR practices could be carried out using reduced targets on a 100 m private range, timed on a whistle? That might also entice the Carbine crowd who are hesitant to attempt 500 meters to give it a try. At the very least it still requires most of the fundamental skills.

Just my thoughts.....

We ran a mid range match last year which was a good steppjng stone from CQB to SR. 50-300m. Some fast in close but some actual marksmanship stuff too. Might be something to look at to draw some more folks. RGV is right too. At one...maybe two SR matches in a year its hard to grow it.

 

[Tenguns]

Putting aside what the CF needs and what the CF should do, the whole CAFSAC, NSCC and SVC in general need some rethinking. It is a sign that the PR people are actually leap frogging ahead of SVC by quickly adopting PRS. The main stream competitive shooting sports have moved away from a highly choreographed, "lining up a lot of people and shooting at the same things at the same time in positions dictated by the rule book", format long time ago.

If the rifle associations are not moving, others will. Look at what Morgan and the group in Petawawa are doing - they are trying to innovate within the restrictions of the typical CF range. That is the way to bring changes, not to see what CAFSAC is going to do because you aren't seeing anything before hitting factor 85.

PRS at Meaford puts 120+competitors through 20 stages in 2 days - and people are let go at 1630. So the number of people is not a justification for the current format. There is more than 1 way to run the sausage grinder.

In my opinion, the quickest way for SVC to evolve is to copy the PRS match format using IPSC style scoring (comstock instead of par time). Change/add/edit/tweak the target sizes, ranges and stage details. Look at what they do with 3 gun in the US, they are hitting out to 400 to 500 yards in an action format, so SVC in its current form doesn't have exclusive "skill set" over that kind of distance. Other people do as well, and probably do it faster without sighters.

So, coming from someone who has never served, what does the CF need, and what should they do? Have you mastered this match, and are bored with it now?

 

[tiriaq]

...I don’t know if SR practices could be carried out using reduced targets on a 100 m private range, timed on a whistle? That might also entice the Carbine crowd who are hesitant to attempt 500 meters to give it a try. At the very least it still requires most of the fundamental skills...

It has been done. We tried it with .22 rifles. Exactly scaled targets were too small given the accuracy potential of .22 conversion units, etc. Worked with .223 rifles. Forget realistic practice of the rundowns on a 100m range.
Rundowns can be practiced at home with a treadmill. Run the interval, get off and dry fire.
Practice in position shooting is really important.