Discussion about bullet performance

Brambles

Brambles

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How do you want your bullet to perform?

Reading various reviews on bullets in the last little while it seems that most people are more satisfied when a bullet makes a complete pass through, in fact with the Barnes TSX bullets it is very rare to recover a bullet in any grain/caliber combo regardless of shot selection oe even shot distance, what I mean by shot selection is the reviews have stated anywhere from frontal shots, broadside, double shoulder, quartering away, quartering to have been complete pass throughs, which tells me that the bullet isn't just passing through, it is passing through with authority.

I guess it also comes down to your own theory about what actually kills the animal and what makes them drop in their tracks. My theory is the bullet delivering the maximum amount of energy to the animal, creating a massive shock wave(hydraulic pressure) and physical tissue damage. Complete pass throughs are nice for the sole fact of a much better blood trail

This makes me ask the question! Does a bullet that passes through with such authority actually transmit the maximum amount of energy to the animal and therefore cause the maximum amount of damage, especially on shots that don't require that kind of penetration, like broadside shots.

A bullet is expected to pass through on a broadside shot, but for arguments sake lets say you shot an animal through the shoulder quartering to you and you find the bullet has traveled through the shoulder, vitals, abdominal cavity and exited the hip, performance not uncommon to the Barnes TSX. This would make me wonder if the bullet even delivers a fraction of the energy avaliable.

I read on another forum where an alaskan resident shot an alaskan moose on purpose with a 7mm-08 120gr TSX DOUBLE SHOULDER SHOT and had a complete pass through, he has complete trust in the bullet and wanted to prove it even further.

Other bullets avaliable, be them controlled expansion or standard core, that are more often recoverd on those off angle deep penetration shots would make me think that they are infact delivering more energy during broadside shots and although they may indeed pass completely through on broadside shots they must be transfering more actual energy.

The thing that really throws my theory out the window is that people claim these deep penetration bullets drop game on the spot like the "hammer of thor" or "hit by lightning" even on boiler room shots with no shoulder or spine. There is about 99% approval for these bullets, people just love them, not saying they shouldn't. This makes me wonder about my theory and what actually is more critical to the on game performance of a bullet?

I have decided to try the 120 gr TSX in my 280 AI to see if I can retain the fantastic on game performance of these bullets and at the same time reduce the amount of wasted energy. Ideally what want in a bullet is for it to only have enough energy to remaining to pass through the hide on the off side of the animal to create the second blood trail at reasonable distances and therefore transitting the maximum amount of energy to the animal

What do you think actually kills the animal? Do you think a complete pass through is a waste? What are your thoughts on this topic?
 
It depends on the size of the animal. Most of the time here in Alberta I have more than one species tag in my pack. If I am hunting moose or elk as well as whitetail I always load a penetrator, a TSX if only whitetail it really isn't necessary. I just got back fmr Africa where I shot animals ranging forn Mountain Reedbuck (about 60 lbs) to Kudu (about 700 lbs) TSX performance was excellent, they open up right away and give very quick kills. Of the 9 I used to shoot 7 animals, all were pass throughs. I was shooting the 168 gr version from a 300 win mag at about 3200 fps muzzle velocity. My son shot the same # of animals with the same bullet from a 30-06 and we recovered one from a zebra. When he hit the animals well he got quick kills also.

They do open quickly and do lots of interior damage, not as quick or as much damage as say a btip, but certainly enough.
 
I like exit wounds, they let blood out...Although wiht TSX bullets, it seems that you don't need much of a blood trail, since the game is dead within 10 paces.:)

But they give exit wounds and bloodtrails, anyway...:wave:

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I don't buy into the whole energy/hydrostatic-shock theory. What kills a game animal is the stoppage of oxygenated blood from reaching the brain. No oxygen, the brain dies. There might be numerous factors that cause spectacular knockdowns, but that is not what kills the game.

The game dies when the heart is hit, the game dies when the lungs are damaged to the extent that the brain does not get oxygen, and the game dies when a CNS shot stops the heart and lungs from working.

Two holes let out more blood than one, and for that reason if a bullet exits, the game will sucumb quicker than if the bullet remains in the body cavity. The volume and shape of the bullet wound are proportional to the fully expanded frontal area of the bullet. IMHO an expanding bullet with a solid copper shank bonded to a pure lead core creates the perfect balance of expansion and penetration without separation. If that jacket is pleated, the result will be that the bullet expands in petals, much like an X bullet, but the addition of lead bonded to the petals seems to prevent them from breaking off.

X bullets tend to work well, but I believe their design is somewhat flawed. The reason I believe this is because with most expanding bullets, the heavier the bullet, the greater the expansion and the larger the resulting wound diameter. But X bullets have the same depth of nose cavity, regardless of bullet weight within caliber, so the expansion and penetration of an X bullet, within caliber, remains the same regardless of whether a light or a heavy bullet is chosen. The additional velocity of the lighter bullet and the extra mass of the heavier bullet cancel each other out, so the wounds appear very similar. Therefore, all you get from a heavier X bullet is a longer shank, which contributes little to the outcome of the shot.
 
Boomer said:
I don't buy into the whole energy/hydrostatic-shock theory. What kills a game animal is the stoppage of oxygenated blood from reaching the brain. No oxygen, the brain dies. There might be numerous factors that cause spectacular knockdowns, but that is not what kills the game.

The game dies when the heart is hit, the game dies when the lungs are damaged to the extent that the brain does not get oxygen, and the game dies when a CNS shot stops the heart and lungs from working.

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Yeah, I agree with that. I never bought Roys hydrostatic shock therories except for maybe smaller game, it sre doesn't work wiht a moose.

I also never bought the "expend all energy wihtin the animal" since it's not so much energy numbers that kills, rather it is holes in vital organs that supply blood/oxygen to the brain. Who cares if you use some energy on the ground on the other side, when the animal has taken one or 2 steps and dropped dead?;)
 
Lots of deer sized game just drop when hit with TSX, most run a bit, usually somewhere between 25 and 100 yards. I've never lost an animal (except a 2000 lb eland which was operator error) hit anywhere close to well with a TSX.
 
The volume and shape of the bullet wound are proportional to the fully expanded frontal area of the bullet.
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Of course that is the frontal area as the bullet passes through the game,not of the recovered bullet.A bullet may expand rapidly causing a large wound channel then lose the core or a petal or two at the very end of it's journey resulting in a small frontal area on the recovered bullet.
 
Some more stuff, long read and a fair bit of Techno babble.

http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/ballistics/myths.html

Basically says there is some small merit to a bullet that can deliver all its energy on an animal, there is a 10 percent chance that the hydrostatic shock may interrupt the central nervous system and cause an animal to drop instantly but relying on this rare phenomenon isn't practical. Too many variables.

What you should count on is a bullet that expands and deforms only enough to create the optimum wound channel therefore maximum cavitation and fully exits the animal with a generous hole.

I guess I'll find out this year when I shoot something with the TSX

Any thoughts on the 120gr vs 140gr TSX debate
 
to go a little off topic. how does an arrow kill game?
as stated above it is the wound in the heart/lungs that puts a whoa on game.
Because i am also a bow hunter i have seen this many times. deer size animals if hit properly will be down within 50 yrds.

that being said it supports my doubts of hydraulic shock killing animals.

IMHO the pass thru has no effect on the speed / effiecency of a kill. the injured organs will bleed out into the chest cavity just as fast pass thru or not.

in regards to the bullet weight debate. i am a fan of heavier bullets. not only for more energy deliver down range but more so to buck the wind. most of my hunting takes place on the prairies where the wind has been known to blow. i also believe that it is much easier to predict and adjust for more bullet drop as opposed to wind deflection.

i know exactly where my rifle hits at 300 yrds on a calm day. but not so sure of the effect of a 13MPH wind at 3 o'clock versus 8 MPH at 4:30.
I shoot 160gr at 3200fps so that may have a bearing on my opinion but i will be the first to buy 175's if they ever com out in the MRX
 
sandytye said:
to go a little off topic. how does an arrow kill game?
as stated above it is the wound in the heart/lungs that puts a whoa on game.
Because i am also a bow hunter i have seen this many times. deer size animals if hit properly will be down within 50 yrds.

that being said it supports my doubts of hydraulic shock killing animals.
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I wasn't saying that Hydraulic shock was the only factory in killing an animal, obviously any shot that punctures the heart and lungs of an animal will kill it, my point is that if you can transmit all of the bullet energy into the animal that it would go down faster that if the bullet just whizzed through.

Now from my reading, as long as the bullet expands properly then the internal damage that it causes is just as devastating whether it passes completely through or not. And by the looks of things the faster the bullet is going the greater internal damage because of cavitation and more violent tissue disruption. This fact is supported by more bloodshot meat caused by hi velocity cartridges.

I think the problem occurs when people use a bullet too tough for the game they are hunting, I seen a hunt by Mike Eastman where he shoots a Pronghorn with a 30-378 pushing 200 gr nosler partitions, the animal showed no sign of a hit, just ran away, it was recovered a short time later and the shot was perfect, but I don't like it when the animals show no sign of being shot. The bullet in question probably was too tough for the Pronghorn and didn't expand completely or expanded late in its travel through the animal. I believe its the hydraulic shock that temporarily interrupts the nervous system that causes this "hit" effect on animals. This also explains some of the Bang Flops you hear from people even though it was a heart or lung shot, a shot that normally shouldn't drop and animal in its tracks.

A bow and arrow doesn't have the energy available to cause this effect on animals. I have yet to see an animal drop instantly from a bow with a heart or lung shot.
 
Brambles said:
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Now from my reading, as long as the bullet expands properly then the internal damage that it causes is just as devastating whether it passes completely through or not. And by the looks of things the faster the bullet is going the greater internal damage because of cavitation and more violent tissue disruption. This fact is supported by more bloodshot meat caused by hi velocity cartridges.

. I believe its the hydraulic shock that temporarily interrupts the nervous system that causes this "hit" effect on animals. This also explains some of the Bang Flops you hear from people even though it was a heart or lung shot, a shot that normally shouldn't drop and animal in its tracks.
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There is more than one way to skin a cat. Probably the most dramatic bang flops I've seen have been using a 375 H&H wiht 300gr Partitions on a few black bears. At least 2 went down so fast I thought I had missed until i walked up into the bushes and found them lying there, completely done.

That load had a MV of about 2550fps.

Like I said before, the hydraulic shock effect probbaly shows up more on smaller game, I don't think you wil ge tth esame effect on a large moose or a bison.:)
 
todbartell said:
didnt you shoot a 300 grain partition into a bear from like 10 feet and have it fail to penetrate?
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Yup! I shot the bear at about 125 yards first. It was standing on the edge of a small embankment, took one small step and tumbled down. I ran up to it, and it was lying just down the bank, and moved, so I pumped 2 more into it's spine, both of which smashed the spine, but stopped on the other side of the bear.

I recovered those 2 bullets, but not the first one.

That made the bear go down fast, but it wasn't one of the "bang flops" and not quite as dramatic...Although when you can put a big trophy class bear like that down wiht one shot, it's always nice.:p
 
A spine with all that odd angle interlocking bone can make for some hard digging. So to me, a 300g partition that goes through a spine but stops 16" away is quite expected.



My "perfect bullet" would make a large diameter wound that is large for a LONG way right to the farside. Making it to the far side being the #1 objective with the large diameter wound being a secondary luxury. This means that the expansion is continuing all the way through the animal. Maximum wound volume, stretching for the entire length of the wound channel, with enough stoutness to break shoulder or femur bones. This ends up being a very high sectional density bullet with enough velocity for rapid expansion, say a 162g Hornady SST from a 7 mag for deer, easy enough.

The hard part is trying to find such a beast for large game such as moose. I don't know of a bullet long enough being pushed fast enough to blow apart the far lung of a big moose but still have the stoutness to break the shoulders. So in the case of large mooses the "Maximum wound volume possible to the far side of the animal" that I like will be achieved by a bullet that more than likely is heavy with lots of lead to loose and has limited expansion so it can actually make it to the far side.

I use a 225g partition from a 338 Win and it has gone through both shoulders of a 50" moose. Lung shots on mooses and one elk did not do spectacular damage by any means, but still made it through. Most spectacular wound I have ever seen on large game was on an Elk was with a 200g Speer from a 300 WBY at 60 yards. A perfect lung hit with about 200g of lead exploding in side took out both lungs to the point there were nothing left. The bullet did not hit the far rib cage. I would not trust this to make it to the far side if the shoulder was hit, not a good choice for me.



To me the TSX does not provide the qualities I am looking for. It does provide the long wound channel but does not deliver on the maximum damage part, there are other bullets that can do more damage while still going deep enough.



Ever hear people bragging about how the TSX doesnt shoot up much meat? Well it's true, of course it does not shoot up much lung, or heart meat either.


I used the 120g TSX from a 7mag on a doe at 60 yards and got a 2" "spot" on the near lung with a 1" "spot" on the far lung where the bullet went through. The actual hole was probably 1" across and the lungs looked perfectly intact. The worst part was there was no reaction form the deer at the shot and no audible hit. Just not what I'm looking for from a 7mag.
 
Brambles said:
Any thoughts on the 120gr vs 140gr TSX debate
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I just tried some 120s in my 7mm Rem Mag yesterday. They didn't group, they patterned -- the 10 shots in my ladder-style load work up went into about 8", with no charge weights starting to group up like you'd expect.

In a rifle that'll put everything else into an inch (including other 120 grain bullets), that was disapointing. I thought I'd have a wicked little sheep load.

But the 140 grain TSXs shot real nice today, and right up at 3250 FPS, so I'm pretty satisfied with that.
 
If you want deep penetration and bullets that penetrate completely, maybe you should consider which bullet will do that and cause lots of damage along the way. If a skimpy bullet goes through an animal, chances are it didn't expand much and won't do much damage. Take a .45cal. bullet(Flat point) or .50cal. and even if it doesn't expand much, it will cut a much bigger path through the animal before exiting, any expansion will be a bonus. Some of these solid copper bullets of 7mm or so dia. won't make a very big wound channel if they decide not to expand.
 
Republic of Alberta said:
I used the 120g TSX from a 7mag on a doe at 60 yards and got a 2" "spot" on the near lung with a 1" "spot" on the far lung where the bullet went through. The actual hole was probably 1" across and the lungs looked perfectly intact. The worst part was there was no reaction form the deer at the shot and no audible hit. Just not what I'm looking for from a 7mag.
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Has anyone else had TSX's that didn't perform well, so far this is the first account I've heard from an unhappy customer, It seems to me that everyone that shoots game loves these bullets?
 
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