Bullet weight vs diameter as it relates to stopping power

BlackRam said:
The 338 Federal with a 225 gr bullet at 2450 fps will have a muzzle energy of approx 3000 ft-lbs, while your 300 Win Mag and a 220 gr bullet at 2650 fps will have approx 3430 ft-lbs of
muzzle energy. (using the velocities you have given)
So the 300 Win Mag wins the muzzle energy race. This is due to the higher initial velocity. If initial velocities were equal, the 338 would have more energy, but only by 100 ft-lbs.
The 338 225 gr bullet has an SD (sectional density) of 0.281 and the 30 cal 220 gr bullet has a SD of 0.331 The higher the SD, the better the penetration is.
So the 300 wins the penetration competition. And this is before you have added the extra velocity of the 300 Win Mag. While SD may be an indicator in a bullets ability to penetrate, it alone does not guarantee "stopping power".
If you were to compare the same type of bullet (i.e. Nosler Partition), the 338 225 gr bullet has a higher BC (ballistic coefficient) than the 308 220 gr bullet vs (0.454 vs 0.351) which means a higher degree of aerodynamic efficiency which will retain its velocity better over range. At a certain point down range the 338 bullet will eventualy carry more energy than the 308 cal bullet.
The 338 cal bullet has a larger frontal area than the 308 cal bullet (due to larger diameter), which will impart more energy on the target with the initial impact and penetration, than the 308 cal bullet. Some would argue that it is marginal, while others will argue that it is distinct. It may not be as readily apparent in this instance vs a larger difference in bullet diameters as in a 6.5 cal bullet and a 375 cal bullet.

So, it would depend at what range you are considering the stopping power to be measured at.
Are you considering this for on-game harvesting performance and killing power or for stopping a charge at short range?

I can say from experience that both cartridges are effectiveon big game in the field from caribou to bison.
Each has its strengths and advantages. It would depend on what you are hunting, and in what type of terrain or environment.
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Sorry, it was late whenI posted this, and missed an important bit:

The old rule of thumb recommended by many experienced riflemen, guides and PH's was:
You want a minimum of the following remaining energy's, at the animal, for the following classes of big game in north america, for aduequate penetration and killing power:
1000 ft-lbs on deer sized game (also includes, black bears, antelope, sheep, goats and caribou)
1500 ft-lbs on moose
2000 ft-lbs on elk, bison and big bears (grizzly, brown and polar)
For reliable penetration to the vitals, through bone and tissue from various angles, with the above remaining energy, for north american game, the recommended SD of the bullet was 0.250, and on Agrican dangerous game, the SD was 0.300
 
Since you have a 308 you can research the family 243, 260, 7mm08 and 358.
Similarly with the 30-06 they is the 25-06, 270, 280 and up to the 35 Whelan.
Then there is the 7mm Remington mag from 264 to the 338 and the 308 Norma Mag and the list gos on.
For comparison check the 7mmRM against the 338 Win Mag in velocity versus power and do the same thing with any other family.
As diameter increases so does the energy.
Pick where you want to go and where you want to stop.
My stop occurred with the 338 Win Mag and the 250 grain Nosler partition at 2750 fps for over 2 tons at the muzzle.
Where am I now? 280 Remington with 140 grain Barnes TTSX at 3006 fps . . . works for me!
 
BlackRam said:
Sorry, it was late whenI posted this, and missed an important bit:

The old rule of thumb recommended by many experienced riflemen, guides and PH's was:
You want a minimum of the following remaining energy's, at the animal, for the following classes of big game in north america, for aduequate penetration and killing power:
1000 ft-lbs on deer sized game (also includes, black bears, antelope, sheep, goats and caribou)
1500 ft-lbs on moose
2000 ft-lbs on elk, bison and big bears (grizzly, brown and polar)
For reliable penetration to the vitals, through bone and tissue from various angles, with the above remaining energy, for north american game, the recommended SD of the bullet was 0.250, and on Agrican dangerous game, the SD was 0.300
Click to expand...

Should moose and elk be reversed?

I always understood the big moose (I.e. Yukon), bison and three big bears, to be the true big game of Canada.

Plenty of elk are shot with .270 and 7mm-08, are they not? Yet those cartridges are deemed marginal for normal sized moose (at least by the .30-06 and .300 mag guys ;) ).
 
I stayed with the 300 Win mag instead of going bigger only because I did not want to get into stocking and playing with 338 bullets. But on the stopping power, if I cannot stop it with a 300 win mag, I should not be out in the field with it.

I have been hunting and reloading for almost 30 years, and I'm still loading and playing around with my 30 cal bullets for accuracy and terminal velocity. I may look back in 20 more years at this post and laugh as I'm still leaning.

really spend time on bullet info. I prefer bullets that are have a long over all length and in 30 cal it seems there are more options out there today than there ever has been in history. 338 and up there is not and with that you will limit what you can do.
 
My grandfather homesteaded near Smithers, BC, in about 1912. He shot 52 moose with his 30-30 rifle. One needed a second shot.

he was a good shot.

BC moose are big.

Elk, I understand, are tougher.

If you can place a bullet where you want it, a 308 is plenty of power. A 180 gr bullet is fine for deer and moose.

I have used bigger calibers myself. Not because I needed them, but just because I wanted to. I really liked 35 Whelen and 338Win Mag
 
A little off topic but my points are related to shooting preferences... A rifle with a medium contour barrel and decent stock are what I prefer to shoot. If a longer barrel is available - I'd shoot the longer barrel. To date I haven't selected a lightweight rifle as I'll carry whatever the rifle weighs. Largely because i have an intended use for a given rifle on a given hunt. So trying a few brands of rifles can make some difference in how the gun feels and reacts under recoil. I usually prefer heavy for caliber bullets over the highest velocity possible offered by lighter grain bullets for caliber. But there are exceptions. Like in the 270 I prefer the 140 grain over the 130 or the 150 grain. In 30-06 I prefer to shoot 165 or 180 grain and never use a 150 grain in that caliber. And in the 243 I prefer the 100 grain or the 95 grain bullet over anything lighter. Even in 223 I prefer a 60 or 62 grain bullet over a 55 grain. Just a few examples and I've tried them all and find each caliber, with a select grain bullet has it's own potential.
 
Bigfoot 870 said:
Should moose and elk be reversed?

I always understood the big moose (I.e. Yukon), bison and three big bears, to be the true big game of Canada.

Plenty of elk are shot with .270 and 7mm-08, are they not? Yet those cartridges are deemed marginal for normal sized moose (at least by the .30-06 and .300 mag guys ;) ).
Click to expand...



While moose are bigger than elk, moose are not overly tough animals to kill. Yes the Alaskan/Yukon moose is much bigger than the Canadian moose (1500-1800 lbs vs 700-1000 lbs, depending on the age and area that the bull lives in; as you go north they tend to get bigger)
Many Canadian moose are easily harvested with smaller cartridges (i.e. 30-30, 7mm-08, 6.5x55, 375 Win, etc.). I've taken moose with these myself. Heck my grandparents used to shoot moose on the trapline with the 22LR and 410 shotgun with slugs. And moose are phlegmatic. You can easily get closer to moose than you can the wary elk, so cartridges with more reach are not always necessary.
Yes, Mr. Nosler created the Partition bullet after his cup and core bullet out of his 300 H&H (IIRC) failed on a mud-caked bull moose,but you mustremember the common hunting bullet used then is a far cry from the quality bullets we have today.
I do agree that I would prefer more energy for the Alaska/Yukon variety of moose, but itis not overly necessary. A 1500 lb bull was taken cleanly with a 358 Win shooting a 220gr Speer Hot Cor bullet at a chronied 2209 fps out of my Browning BLR, at a distance of 80 yards (approx. 1900 ft-lbs of remaining energy). That's about 1400 ft-lbs of energy less than a 180 gr load out of a 300 Win Mag at that distance.
They do not have the constitution nor tenacity of life that the elk has. And elk have the densest bone of any animal in north america. An old study of bullet performance on elk shoulder bones revealed that the minimum cartridge/bullet combination required to cleanly break through the heavy part of the shoulder bone, and still reach the vitals, was the 338Win Mag with a well constructed 250 gr bullet.
Coincidentally, that same BLR and load has accounted for a few bull elk at shorter distances (called in) then that bull moose, with well placed shots to the lungs.
 
BlackRam said:
While moose are bigger than elk, moose are not overly tough animals to kill. Yes the Alaskan/Yukon moose is much bigger than the Canadian moose (1500-1800 lbs vs 700-1000 lbs, depending on the age and area that the bull lives in; as you go north they tend to get bigger)
Many Canadian moose are easily harvested with smaller cartridges (i.e. 30-30, 7mm-08, 6.5x55, 375 Win, etc.). I've taken moose with these myself. Heck my grandparents used to shoot moose on the trapline with the 22LR and 410 shotgun with slugs. And moose are phlegmatic. You can easily get closer to moose than you can the wary elk, so cartridges with more reach are not always necessary.
Yes, Mr. Nosler created the Partition bullet after his cup and core bullet out of his 300 H&H (IIRC) failed on a mud-caked bull moose,but you mustremember the common hunting bullet used then is a far cry from the quality bullets we have today.
I do agree that I would prefer more energy for the Alaska/Yukon variety of moose, but itis not overly necessary. A 1500 lb bull was taken cleanly with a 358 Win shooting a 220gr Speer Hot Cor bullet at a chronied 2209 fps out of my Browning BLR, at a distance of 80 yards (approx. 1900 ft-lbs of remaining energy). That's about 1400 ft-lbs of energy less than a 180 gr load out of a 300 Win Mag at that distance.
They do not have the constitution nor tenacity of life that the elk has. And elk have the densest bone of any animal in north america. An old study of bullet performance on elk shoulder bones revealed that the minimum cartridge/bullet combination required to cleanly break through the heavy part of the shoulder bone, and still reach the vitals, was the 338Win Mag with a well constructed 250 gr bullet.
Coincidentally, that same BLR and load has accounted for a few bull elk at shorter distances (called in) then that bull moose, with well placed shots to the lungs.
Click to expand...

Cool, and thanks for the detailed response. I only know what I'd seen on TV, and then the internet came along, which kind of made life more confusing.

I bought my first "high powered" rifle in 1989, deemed weird for NS. A .270 Win, and I have stuck mainly with that cartridge since. I remember, I bought three boxes of Imperial Kling Kor SP 160 gr ammo, in case I ever got drawn for a Cape Breton moose hunt (I never did).
I used "regular" 130 and 150 gr for whitetails, then bumped up to Federal Premium 150 gr Nosler Partitions, for a BC mule deer hunt (that didn't happen).
I always believed that I had plenty for elk, and enough for moose, with this ammo.

Do you suppose that moose kill easily, because they often run a short distance, after the shot and simply stand until they fall over (because they are not scared of much?), while elk often run, and keep running, after the initial shot, if not dropped on the spot? Shot placement vs energy?

Looks like I'm good out to 200 yards on elk. I'll leave the bison and big bears for the big guys. :)

https://www.federalpremium.com/products/rifle/premium-centerfire-rifle/nosler-partition/p270e
 
G-Force24 said:
Perhaps in interesting topic.

I have a .308 win, love it for hunting, but I have recently began to think hard about getting something with some more umpf

So here is the topic. What has better overall stopping power, or what makes a bigger difference. Bullet diameter or velocity considering bullet weight would be roughly the same based on availability.

338 Federal with 225gr travelling at 2450 approx fps.
300 win mag with either 220 or 230gr travelling at approx 2650 approx FPS.

My velocities may not be perfect but the point remains, a 308 cal projectile travelling faster, than a wider diameter but slower 338

Thoughts?

Edited, Bullet diameter vs Bullet speed for a faster drop of an animal (moose bear)
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If you add the bullet design into the equation, you might just find that your .308 Win does have "enough" umph (I.e. Federal Premium 308 180 grain Nosler Partition, or Nosler Trophy Grade 308 165 Grain Nosler Partition).

Of course, once you have that "new gun" thought in your head, there may be no turning back. Have you considered the .338 Win Mag?
 
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It boils down to bigger and faster is better, period. You have to use whatever you are comfortable handling. With today’s bullets, lesser calibers can still work very well. My deer gun is a lightweight .338, I shoot it as good as lighter calibers. It works great for everything.
 
G-Force24 said:
Perhaps in interesting topic.

I have a .308 win, love it for hunting, but I have recently began to think hard about getting something with some more umpf

So here is the topic. What has better overall stopping power, or what makes a bigger difference. Bullet diameter or velocity considering bullet weight would be roughly the same based on availability.

338 Federal with 225gr travelling at 2450 approx fps.
300 win mag with either 220 or 230gr travelling at approx 2650 approx FPS.

My velocities may not be perfect but the point remains, a 308 cal projectile travelling faster, than a wider diameter but slower 338

Thoughts?

Edited, Bullet diameter vs Bullet speed for a faster drop of an animal (moose bear)
Click to expand...

If you really want to smack things; go with the 300 and an easy opening bullet in the 180 range. Something like a Partition or Accubond are safe bets. Among the many different factors, velocity is the biggest.
 
Bigfoot 870 said:
Should moose and elk be reversed?

I always understood the big moose (I.e. Yukon), bison and three big bears, to be the true big game of Canada.

Plenty of elk are shot with .270 and 7mm-08, are they not? Yet those cartridges are deemed marginal for normal sized moose (at least by the .30-06 and .300 mag guys ;) ).
Click to expand...

old timers seldom shot game at any distance, back in the good old days.......FS
 
Having used both big and slow and light and fast to kill deer and bear i have my preferences. For example every animal ive shot with my 2506 has dropped in its tracks except one 7 point white tail in which i intentionally aimed for a liver shot as it offered a backstop on the offside whereas his chest did not. He was in an open field. He stumped maybe 60 yards never straightening a leg or raising his head. I dropped my largest black bear with my 2506
On the other hand ive used shotgun slugs and 50 cal muzzleloaders on many deer and a bear. Lung and heart shots the animals ran. Some only 20 to 30 yards. Others over a 100 yards. Even a big 8 point whitetail shot chest on thru the heart where the 50 cal 270gr bullet was visible on the outter edge of the ass cheek when the hide was removed ran over 100 yards with an impressive blood trail. However when that 270gr 50 cal bullet is sent thru a front shoulder or a 12ga slug for that matter theyve all dropped and died except for one massive 9 point. He couldnt get up after i smashed both his front shoulders at 30 yards. I put another one into his neck to end his thrashing.
I also hunt bear with 4570 and 458wm. Slow and medium id say. Both are extremely effective however i tend to prefer them as they allow me to reach the vitals from any angle and plow thru any bone on its path where as i wouldnt tey those same shots with a faster lighter bullet
So comparing stopping power is more than numbers. Its putting a bullet of proper construction thru a certain part to get a desired effect. I know my 2506 will send a 117gr interlock thru any bone in a wolf or deer but i get a lil untrusty of it on moose and bear even though it will kill them on a perfect shot like broadside. I know my 458wm will work on any angle and will work in worst case scenario and thats why i carry rifles that fire bigger slower bullets for big game. If i hunted only small lightly built animals id use a fast flat shooting rifle spitting light explosive bullets

For the op options of a 300wm vrs a 338 fed all i can say is i own a 300wm and have really been looking into a 338 fed because under 300 yards i doubt any animal could tell the difference between the two. The 300 may have better numbers but a 210 to 225gr 338 bullet leaving the muzzle at 2400fps or so is quite the message of death to any animal so touched. I wouldnt hesitate to field either and i think if i owned a 338 fed my 300wm would see even less use until i needed to take a shot passed the 300 mark. But id be sending a tipped trophy bonded bear claw of 180gr not a 220gr
 
A simpler way to look at the topic is the fact there are minimum caliber restrictions in most countries for hunting dangerous game that can hit back. If big heavy and slow didnt work there wouldnt be a minimum requirement
 
The greater the sectional density of the animal, the greater the sectional density of the bullet. Same goes for weight.
 
starvin said:
Speed kills
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Not even close. Bullet construction is far more important than speed, as is sectional density. You have to reach the vitals which means you need a certain amount of penetration but you also have to balance expansion. Too much velocity can lead to too much/rapid expansion which can cut the penetration off at the knees. This is why a 300 Wby with a 130gr NBT will be outclassed by a 30-06 with a 180gr NPT almost every time on big game.
 
Bigfoot 870 said:
Cool, and thanks for the detailed response. I only know what I'd seen on TV, and then the internet came along, which kind of made life more confusing.

Do you suppose that moose kill easily, because they often run a short distance, after the shot and simply stand until they fall over (because they are not scared of much?), while elk often run, and keep running, after the initial shot, if not dropped on the spot? Shot placement vs energy?
Click to expand...

To a degree, yes.
Moose just are not as "flighty" as elk are. And in the big game world, they just are not as tough and tenacious as elk.

But with any well placed shot, with a bullet of good construction, with enough remaining velocity and energy to reach the vitals, the end should be clean and quick.
A point of note; Heart shot animals tend to run further than lung shot animals. The shock to the heart triggers an adrenal surge in the brain that triggers the flight response. While a double lung hit disrupts the oxygen to the body system that causes animals to stop running quickly. (i.e. 100 yard death run til they drop vs 30 yard and stop because they can't breathe)
This point has been well demonstrated on the big game that I have harvested over the past 35 years, and I aim for the double lung shot vs the heart shot, whenever possible. It just seems they naturally run the wrong way, into the nastiest stuff (brush, ravine, river, etc.) further from your mode of transportation, when heart shot! LOL
And we are supposed to e working smarter, not harder!

I would say you re well equipped with your current equipment. But, it is always fun and exciting to "need" a new rifle!
 
G-Force24 said:
Perhaps in interesting topic.

I have a .308 win, love it for hunting, but I have recently began to think hard about getting something with some more umpf

So here is the topic. What has better overall stopping power, or what makes a bigger difference. Bullet diameter or velocity considering bullet weight would be roughly the same based on availability.

338 Federal with 225gr travelling at 2450 approx fps.
300 win mag with either 220 or 230gr travelling at approx 2650 approx FPS.

My velocities may not be perfect but the point remains, a 308 cal projectile travelling faster, than a wider diameter but slower 338

Thoughts?

Edited, Bullet diameter vs Bullet speed for a faster drop of an animal (moose bear)
Click to expand...

This past autumn I killed a 300+ lb. mule deer buck with a .243 dia. (240 Weatherby Magnum) bullet. POI velocity was at least 3,400 fps., distance was 60 yards. Bullet went straight through and laid just under the hide, on the off side. Key to bullet performance is: shot placement and premium bullet. In this case, a 90 gr. Nosler Accubond. Later, at home, I weighed the bullet at 36gr...........now that's performance.
https://imgur.com/a/vR5pesa
 
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