Garand Help part 2: The Plot Thickens

C

C.308

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More Garand woes

I was very happy about solving my oprod spring problem from my previous thread. But it appears the plot has thickened...

Until now, I was using empty cases in an enbloc just to practice loading. I didnt have any proper dummy rounds yet. I was not chambering the cases, just pushing them down to latch in, then ejecting the clip.

Today I picked up some A-Zoom metal snap caps. Now I have discovered a new and somewhat disturbing problem.

After the first try chambering one, the round was Extremely difficult to extract. I had to carefully tap the charging handle to open the action. Same results every time I tried. I even tried some fired cases that fit loose enough, to rule out bad snap caps, inserting them into the chamber by hand. Exactly the same. I have not attempted to load live ammunition. (I dont have any yet, nor have I had a chance to go to the range yet).

After trying this a few times I noticed the bolt will not close. There is a significant gap below the right lug. So the bolt is flying forward, trying to lock up and going part way until it binds up and becomes stuck and I have to force the action open.

View attachment 246035
Here is the bolt closed as far as it will go with a dummy round in the chamber. It's the same gap when the rifle is assembled and a round is chambered properly from a clip.



The chamber is clean and dummy rounds slide in perfectly smooth until they stop dead. They are not getting stuck in the chamber.

The action is smooth as silk when empty. The bolt closes when empty. She is assembled and greased correctly.

Naturally I started to sweat a little and started reading, and discovered that aftermarket barrels often come with a short chamber to be finished upon installation.

I'm not 100% sure but I suspect this barrel was threaded onto the receiver, parts assembled without a headspace check or a finished chamber. I suspect this barrel was sold with a short chamber. Maybe the previous owner was unaware of that and had a smith install the barrel on the receiver prior to obtaining a bolt, and just assembled the rest himself unaware of a short chamber or the need to check headspace. I think the ad said he had it assembled by a gunsmith from parts he collected over a couple years and then it just sat in his safe. I dont recall if he said hed fired it, but i dont see how. I can only speculate at this point.

I was also told this is a criterion barrel yet there are no marks anywhere on it. The only thing that might help ID it is the fact that it is not parkerized around the gas cylinder splines where it was covered by the gas cylinder. Possibly Citadel? I have no Idea. Otherwise I cant find anything definitive on unmarked barrels and how to ID them.

View attachment 246037

I'm not quite sure what to make of all this. I don't get how someone could have an M1 assembled, offer it as a trade in a condition where the clips dont insert due to an oversized spring and it doesnt chamber a round or close the bolt. What if I didnt check it out and fired it? The hammer definitely still falls despite 1/8" +/- gap between the lug and receiver.

I've contacted the seller for more information but I'm awaiting his response. I get the whole buyer beware thing and I am not looking for anything here other than maybe some advice on where I can fix this beast. I was really looking forward to getting this one and so far its been more trouble than anything else I've had and yet it is one of the most valuable guns I've ever owned. Just wow.
 
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Nope. I was looking at a set from pacific tool and gauge. But I was going to hold off until I determine what a gunsmith might cost.
 
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Criterion barrels are marked CBI and date under where the oprod travels and you can see it with the oprod pulled back.

I think you are probably right in assuming its a Citadel and was installed (likely out of time) and sent back to the owner with no headspace check. (Or by the owner..??)

Already stated I agree it looks short chambered.

Someone will be along shortly and will most certainly help you out.

Keep us posted!
 
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What a total drag. Hopefully you’ll leave appropriate feedback for the seller so others can stay far away. Especially after being burned twice on the same rifle.
 
When you swap out a barrel or bolt you should do a headspace check. Too much headspace and the casing will over expand and give you hard extraction. Excessive headspace can also case the case to fail and separate leaving the front part of the casing in the chamber. If the rifle cycles you'll then get a round jammed into the chamber. A spit casing can also cause bits of brass to fly about.

Too short headspace will give you the symptoms detailed above.

Excessive headspace can, sometime, be corrected by trimming down the exterior of the barrel. However, doing that may mean the barrel will screw in to the point where the front sight and/or gas bock will be out of alignment.

Too tight headspace is easier to fix, you just need to carefully use a chamber reamer.

A set of GO, NO GO gauges on Amazon runs over $200 which is a lot of money for a gauge you won't use very often. A local gunsmith should be able to headspace the rifle for you for maybe $20. A friend with a set of gauges maybe even for free.
 
Sounds like a short chambered barrel.

Criterion doesn’t sell a fully chambered 30-06 Garand barrel, they are all short chambered.

I charge $275 to instal a barrel and cut the chamber. 308 or 30-06 in a Garand rifle. There’s a starting point for you when deciding if your going to buy a reamer or hire it out. I suppose I should also tell you what’s involved with that....

First lap the bolt to the receiver, this is generally done before the barrel is installed. It can be done after, but I prefer to use the bolt laping fixture. Next you dry fit the barrel to see if it will index properly. Generally speaking a little material needs to be removed from the barrel shoulder, as little as 5 thousandths as much as 45 thousandths. That really should be done in a lathe. Next you use assembly lube and instal and index the barrel. Then cut the chamber with a pull-through reamer, clean the cutting fluid and chips out of the chamber and check with gauges, repeat as neccissary to get the correct headspace. Remove the barrel and give the chamber a quick polish (again on the lathe) and finally final assembly of the barreled action.

John
 
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lakeside said:
...A set of GO, NO GO gauges on Amazon runs over $200 which is a lot of money for a gauge you won't use very often. A local gunsmith should be able to headspace the rifle for you for maybe $20. A friend with a set of gauges maybe even for free.
Click to expand...

Brownells lists Forster gauges, Go, No Go and Field @ US$27.99 apiece.

m14medic.ca describes the solution to the problem. Barrel correctly installed, properly timed and headspaced.

Because of the cheap receivers, a lot of M-1s have been cobbled together from miscellaneous parts, by individuals with extremely varied levels of skill and knowledge. And these bitsers seem to sell for what original arsenal assembled rifles bring.
 
Thank you gentlemen.

I've had a couple offers of help to check and ream the chamber.

Man, I really am not prepared to invest another $300+ into this rifle, which was supposed to be fully functional. especially after discovering that it is not in fact the same quality barrel I was told it had. The ad said criterion and now I have a barrel of unknown origin.

I was planning on checking the timing tonight, and then visiting a local fellow gun nut tomorrow, who was going to help me check my headspace and cut the chamber as required. I suppose that cutting the chamber and polishing what I can with it still installed on the barrel would be considered inadequate?
 
I just finished speaking with the previous owner. He seemed to be genuinely unaware of the condition. He said his gunsmith wasnt familiar with M1 rifles. He never tried to fire it or load dummy rounds. I find that unusual as the first thing I want to do with a new rifle is try it out and dummy rounds are as close as I can get in my basement!

It has also been confirmed this is a citadel barrel from TEC. He said he made a mistake when listing the brand.

He did offer to swap our rifles back and cover shipping. I'm not set on that as I do want to keep the M1 in my collection.

It seems I have some thinking to do. My head hurts lol.
 
C.308 said:
Thank you gentlemen.

I've had a couple offers of help to check and ream the chamber.

Man, I really am not prepared to invest another $300+ into this rifle, which was supposed to be fully functional. especially after discovering that it is not in fact the same quality barrel I was told it had. The ad said criterion and now I have a barrel of unknown origin.

I was planning on checking the timing tonight, and then visiting a local fellow gun nut tomorrow, who was going to help me check my headspace and cut the chamber as required. I suppose that cutting the chamber and polishing what I can with it still installed on the barrel would be considered inadequate?
Click to expand...

If the timing is correct, check the headspace. If reaming is needed, a pull reamer can be used without removing the barrel from the receiver. Be careful.
 
You can cut the chamber and forego the polishing if you have a “fresh” reamer. If the reamer has a few chambers under its belt, the need for polishing will be pretty evident upon inspection of fired brass. Basically, the only way to know for sure if ya need it or not is to test it, worst case scenario you might get a stuck case.

I have heard of fellas using a flexible rod chamber brush and 4/0 steel wool and a cordless drill to polish the chamber in the rifle.... I wouldn’t do that to my rifle, let-alone a customers.... but to each their own.

The biggest problem with pull-through reamers is their lifespan. I only seem to get 10-15 good chambers out of a reamer before it needs to be touched up. 2 touch ups and it needs to be replaced... a “standard” finishing reamer has at least double the lifespan.

John
 
Thanks for the clarification. I'm going to check my lug contact and barrel timing tonight. If all checks out I'll have it reamed tomorrow and we will see about polishing the chamber. Lots of varying opinions on that. I would've preferred to do it right if it needed it, but unless the barrel comes off that's not happening. And the barrel Isn't coming off unless I need to correct poor timing, which will require a gunsmith and a lathe.

Even then, it may get sent back to the original owner at that point, I havent decided. I will have to consider all of my options. Thank goodness I have a few now, since all of you guys have been so helpful!

You all rock. Thank You.

I will ask if the reamer is new. From what I recall he said it was purchased but then he decided to go with a .308 garand instead, and ended up sending his gun to Vulcan rather than replace his new tools with the .308 equivalent. We will take it easy and check with the go gauge often.
 
This is not the first time I have heard of snap caps/ dummy rounds not working

I used to know a firearms instructor that had a 30-30 lever.. 30 plus years old that would not take Snap caps

and I have heard of other people with same problem
 
I live near high park. I've had snap caps fail to feed into the chamber on an old 858 I had. But they would fit the chamber. Just didnt like being stripped from the magazine. I think the "bullets" in the snap caps are much smaller which might cause them to feed funny in some rifles.

Wouldnt it be wonderful if I did just have 2 bad snap caps and the thing ended up being timed and headspaced perfectly!

The first thing we will do tomorrow is toss a go gauge in the chamber.
 
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