7.62 x 25

First off, I'm really glad to see some people calling bullsh&t on others, and doing it in a reasonably polite manner. I always appreciate a variety of pov's, and the fact that they are being debated and not being given carte-blanche acceptance is both refreshing and admirable.

Now, down to some details:

1) The CZ pistol is known to have some lesser points, firing pin included. Firearm wear is not unknown with this model, either (given age, etc.). Factors like weak and worn parts have been known to result in tragedy, etc. When coupled with (over) powerful ammunition, any pistol can go "kablooey", for want of more professional jargon...

2) It was not uncommon for Soviet-pact countries to load "hotter" handgun ammunition for their submachine guns. If it helps folk to understand this, realize that +P+ ammunition is used to help cycle automatic weapons faster, as well as add a little "kick" to the equation. Now, having said this, the Soviet-pact countries were not always so quick to mark and keep track of the hotter ammo.

3) While I've not conducted this test personally, the fellow over at the Box O'Truth has found the 7.62x25 mm to be superior penetrator of a US GI helmet, when compared to the .357 Magnum. This, in fact, goes back to the old argument about "small & fast" ammo versus the "heavy & slow" type. The former is better for penetration, while the latter seems to be favoured by the "stopping power" people.

4) By the way, the Discovery Channel has noted that the natural predators of the proponents of "stopping power" are the folks that advocate shot-placement. A small but significant offshoot of the shot-placement tribe have been known to practice something called the Mozambique-drill...

5) This is just something I personally have to get off my chest: the 7.65 mm is NOT the 7.63 mm Mauser! I'm not accusing any CGN'er of mistaking the .32 ACP for the mighty C-96 round, but I've read far too many mistaken accounts for this to go uncorrected - and from too many people who should have known better. I'm talking about those ranging from Raymond Chandler to the Britannica - in other words, folks who should really know better. If I see one more description of 'a pocket gun firing a magnum-like 7.65 mm rocket of a cartridge', my dislike of Tom Clancy's page-long firearm descriptions may even begin to waver. Maybe.

6) Okay, that's about it for now. Thank you for your time. By the way, those who mis-spelled the moniker of "ilovepotatos", the Dan Quayle Institute of Speeling is now open for business. :)
 
There certainly is an "if it ain't american, it can't be good" mentality.

In fact there are very, very, very few documented cases of gun failures that aren't the result of user stupidity (e.g. bore obstructions, choice of the wrong powder, etc.), and when there are, the net and the media are all over it. I can't recall the last, that's how few there are.

Exactly my point, very few firearms of any nationality simply fail. Still we see things trotted out as fact that are simply amazing. I believe that the reason we don't hear the same sorts of rubbish about US made guns is the fear of lawsuits - given that US manufacturers have to have lawyers anyway they serve as a great deterrent to idle mudslinging.

how about Fulton's
"The Chinese bolts have a great deal more problems than just the heat treating. Incidentally, whether a part is cast or forged has nothing to do with whether they need to be heat treated. These bolts could be transmutated into Kryptonite, but they will still be dangerously substandard."
I think most people here know that he is referring to very early production rifles, and then not all of them. Still someone on the battlerifles forum asked about bad bolts in Norinco M14's in the last 2 weeks.
http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=37316
Notice the phrase "dangerously substandard" I've heard of SOME soft bolts deforming quickly and the headspace increasing, but I have never heard of an injury resulting.

This about the CZ52
"After I have run a few mags thru it & the barrel heats up, I can't hit a thing. Usually hits a foot low at 20feet. "

How fast do you have to shoot a semi-automatic pistol to have a cumulative heat effect on the barrel? Especially given that handgun barrels are supported (to some degree) at both ends of their short length? A foot low??
(the above from the gunboards forums)

Very few of the things we see on the net have enough support, most are simply recycled crap from someone who felt the urge to pontificate. That said, I believe that given enough time I can blow up any gun, so if anyone has a gun that they feel may blow up, feel free to transfer it to me - I'll "take one for the team" and shoot it 'til it blows up. As long as I supply the ammo :D

Indeed I was implying that bad things happen in the US (and nowhere else) to Chinese and East Bloc firearms - it certainly doesn't seem that bad things happen to Chinese and East Bloc firearms in places like China or Eastern Europe, or at my local club when I'm out shooting.(M14, SKS, Type54, 1911A1- C ) I can't wait to get my Type 54 out to blow away the berms at 300 meters because 7.62 Tok is mysteriously more powerful than any other round that has equal or better ballistics.
 
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3) While I've not conducted this test personally, the fellow over at the Box O'Truth has found the 7.62x25 mm to be superior penetrator of a US GI helmet, when compared to the .357 Magnum. This, in fact, goes back to the old argument about "small & fast" ammo versus the "heavy & slow" type. The former is better for penetration, while the latter seems to be favoured by the "stopping power" people.
There is considerable inconsistancies with that, as any of the lighter bullet .357 loadings would match or exceed the 7.62Tok velocities. If a 158g lead bullet loading was compared to the Tok, above might hold true.
 
OK I AM GUILTY OF A SPELLING ERROR;
Please forgive an old man his "senior moment."

I apologize to the potato (ilovepotatos) on the west coast, ....

That said I still challenge him to reply to my question about the 7.62x25 vs .45acp capabilities....
John
 
There is considerable inconsistancies with that, as any of the lighter bullet .357 loadings would match or exceed the 7.62Tok velocities. If a 158g lead bullet loading was compared to the Tok, above might hold true.

Were you objecting to the physics behind it, or the pictures he posted? :)
 
Were you objecting to the physics behind it, or the pictures he posted? :)

Box o truth website seems to be down so I can't view the tests and specs on what guns/ammo was used. I just think the so called "test" can have a predictable outcome depending on components chosen, and a blanket statement like "7.62tok has better armour penetration then .357mag" is not necessarily fact.
 
Penetration of objects like steel helmets is a little indicator of effectiveness for self defense. FMJ bullets will penetrate more than soft point, lead or HP bullets, yet people have CCW load their guns with HP ammo (which is the worst bullet shaper if you’re looking for max penetration.)

If you take a 9mm and load it with 90-95gr bullet you can easily match 7.62x25 velocity and exceed energy since latter uses lighter bullets.

But since 7.62x25 has a small bullet diameter it will have higher Sectional density and Ballistic coefficient then a light 9mm bullet...

I believe that for penetration of hard objects/barriers light and fast bullets work better, but for soft barriers heavier bullet would win (even if they are a bit slower).
 
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Accurate Powders did some research with the 7.62 x 25 and the CZ 52. Using an 85gr bullet and their No 9 powder they got vel up to 1976fps at 42,000cup (what they considered a safe pressure limit for the vz 52). I have used that loading in my CZ 52. You can call or write to Accurate for their CZ52 data.
 
Box o truth website seems to be down so I can't view the tests and specs on what guns/ammo was used. I just think the so called "test" can have a predictable outcome depending on components chosen, and a blanket statement like "7.62tok has better armour penetration then .357mag" is not necessarily fact.
They used a .357 Magnum, 158 grain JHP, out of his S&W Model 27, with an 8 3/8ths inch barrel, then a 125 grain JSP to top velocity and a 158 grain hard-cast, gas-checked SWC at maximum velocity.

No penetration

The Tok out of a CZ52 penetrated immediately

http://theboxotruth.com/docs/bot29_4.htm
 
They used a .357 Magnum, 158 grain JHP, out of his S&W Model 27, with an 8 3/8ths inch barrel, then a 125 grain JSP to top velocity and a 158 grain hard-cast, gas-checked SWC at maximum velocity.

No penetration

The Tok out of a CZ52 penetrated immediately

http://theboxotruth.com/docs/bot29_4.htm

Thanks for the link.....these guys are clowns.:rolleyes:
Doesn't list loads or velocities for the .357, and blue dot is not really the ideal magnum powder. Going by my speer manual, max load with blue dot and 125g bullet would be 1333fps, max with 158g lead would be under 1000fps. Winchester has factory loadings hotter then that. Choice of bullet and powder would have played a big roll in the .357 performance.
 
Choice of bullet and powder would have played a big roll in the .357 performance.

Was it a straw-man argument posted on that site, then? I printed out the test once upon a time, but I cannot find the details right now. I'm curious to know what would have been a "fairer" match-up - no sarcasm meant in any way.
 
Was it a straw-man argument posted on that site, then? I printed out the test once upon a time, but I cannot find the details right now. I'm curious to know what would have been a "fairer" match-up - no sarcasm meant in any way.

It just wasn't very transparent or scientific in the approach. 7.62Tok runs about 1450fps with an 88g FMJ bullet, .357mag loadings buddy was using were not comparable as they were heavier bullets, different design, and slower loadings then normal. It's no secret speed and bullet design are what defeats body armour. .357mag with a 90g FMJ could easily be loaded to 1800fps, mabey even hit 2000fps in the right 8 3/4" revolver.
I don't think the guy was lying or trying to manipulate data or anything, I just don't think he really knows what he's doing and is making silly generalisations about the results of this tests.
 
Where did this come from? Can you cite a source?

The Accurate Arms Load Manual lists the top load for a 85gr bullet in the 7.62x25TT as follows: 10.4 grs of #9 - 1445 fps at 33K cup

If their published data is true, then 1976 fps would require a pile more pressure than 42K cup- more like 50K cup, and I can't see much more #9 powder fitting into the case, maybe 12 grs?

You say you "used that loading" in your CZ52. How many grains is it? What velocity did you get?

Something is not right here.

Accurate Powders did some research with the 7.62 x 25 and the CZ 52. Using an 85gr bullet and their No 9 powder they got vel up to 1976fps at 42,000cup (what they considered a safe pressure limit for the vz 52). I have used that loading in my CZ 52. You can call or write to Accurate for their CZ52 data.
 
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I got the loading data from Accurate. If you tell them what you want they will sent it to you. Also you can phone them. I will get the actual number of grains for everyone but I don't have it with me now.
 
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