Precision rimfire rifle choice

[sillymike]

Oh, boy...

5 out of 10, it's got to be worth something... right?

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The entertainment value of this thread is petty high, thanks to all who participated!
Now, lets see if we can get this back on track. The Ruger 22lr precision rifle looks like a good value.

Changing the barrel seems easy enough, other than Lilja, anybody else making a barrel for these?

 

[Longboat]

That was obviously .490 with digital calipers hence the .000 measurement.

I was pretty happy with that with 5/10 shots in that group within .490 and 1.2 mils wind dialed in. I thought that would be a decent indication it shoots good considering the conditions.

I thought .690 for 7/10 shots on my first pic was pretty good too.

Maybe I should just stop at 5 shots lol.

 

[grauhanen]

Here is 10 shots @ 100 with 9 or 10 mph wind I just shot. 5/10 in .489" with gusts.

http://imgur.com/gallery/qulSKLP

Where? Not in that image. Every single shot counts. Even the so-called fliers. There are no mulligans. None. Not one. Clearly LB is so new to shooting that he doesn't recognize that claims such as those he's made will be viewed with a great deal of justifiable scepticism.

 

[Longboat]

5/10 are less than half inch with conditions that require wind call. Not sure how you don't see it in the pic? First pic has 7/10 less than .7 in breeze. Yeah 3 changed POI. Not sure why.

Not sure why it is so hard to believe that in absolutely zero wind the gun will hold about the size of a dime at 100? Indoors with no external factors the gun could do it.

When I said dime sized originally I didn't measure. I just remember shooting 3 ten shot groups last fall and saying holy sh*t those are dime sized which they were very close to.

Sorry for the misinformation as a dime is .709 I now see. So maybe the groups were .75 MOA.

Anyone here goes to the Stittsville Shooting Range DM me and you can see it for yourself.

Commence degrading me lol...

 

[nowarningshot]

The skepticism comes with repeated assertions you can, yet through all the posts, no pictures.

Ten shot groups give too many chances of a flyer wrecking everything.

I have two 452 varmits, and a 513T that shoot very well. The 452's are discontinued, but have acquired a following. Even so, they go $500-600.

 

[Longboat]

The targets were from last fall. They may or may not be around. Didn't know they were worthy of framing on the wall. And you will see that is the only 2 pics I have ever posted on here. And downloaded Imgur just a few hours ago so I could post from now on.

I thought those were good groups in significant wind. And people would realize the groups would tighten up in no wind to "dime sized" lol.

 

[Longboat]

What's considered a good group with a 22 with 1.2 mils wind dialed in with gusts? Those 2 pics are right about 1.5"

 

[grauhanen]

5/10 are less than half inch with conditions that require wind call. Not sure how you don't see it in the pic? First pic has 7/10 less than .7 in breeze. Yeah 3 changed POI. Not sure why.

Not sure why it is so hard to believe that in absolutely zero wind the gun will hold about the size of a dime at 100? Indoors with no external factors the gun could do it.

When I said dime sized originally I didn't measure. I just remember shooting 3 ten shot groups last fall and saying holy sh*t those are dime sized which they were very close to.

Sorry for the misinformation as a dime is .709 I now see. So maybe the groups were .75 MOA.

If you can cover a group with a dime then the shots would be very close to 0.5" center-to-center.

The problem with the claims put forward is that it is so hard to believe that three consecutive ten shot groups within 0.5" were shot, and shot with CCI SV no less, and a Ruger Precision Rimfire to boot. That's winning the lottery twice in a row kind of luck. First of all it is utterly fantastic to get one ten shot group in 0.5" with the Ruger and CCI ammo. It would take stupendous good fortune to do it a second time in a row. Asking other shooters familiar with the challenges of shooting rimfire to believe that a third consecutive ten shot group in 0.5" at 100 yards just beggars belief. To paraphrase Ian Fleming, once is happenstance, a second time an extraordinary coincidence, and a third time it's clearly enemy action -- or in this case a foolish boast that smacks of malicious intent.

 

[Cameron SS]

Post pics of your dime sized 10 round 100 yard groups.

Seriously. At least go through the effort of fudging some 20 yard targets for us.

Im not here to brag or impress anyone. And I don't work for Ruger. The gun is capable of that accuracy. Not sure why you would doubt a rimfire can accomplish that either.

Tried many rounds through it. Hot rounds are not so good. 1070 FPS CCI Standard Velocity is dime sized in no wind.

People doubt you cause your claim is preposterous.

This "trans-sonic barrier" throwing bullets wild theory gets parroted so much, absent any data to back it up. Most HV ammo goes wild because it sucks. Inconsistent primer and powder charges, cartridge defects like uneven seating depths, canted bullets, varying brass dimensions, etc, are what send those bullets astray.

Trans-sonic barrier is a thing. But not the thing that Longboat said it was:

Light 40 grain 22 lr projectiles get smacked in the ass from their own sonic wake and sends them all over the place by the time they get to 100.

We know his explanation is scientifically BS because the effect of transition from super sonic to sub sonic flight destabilizes ALL bullets, regardless of mass, diameter, or mass to diameter ratio.

We also know his explanation is BS because, physics. The shockwave created by the bullet's super-sonic travel is created by the bullet attempting to, and failing, to push the air in front of it out of the way. The air can't move fast enough (hence the limit to the speed of sound), and the resulting air piles up in front of the bullet, which is in essence, the shockwave. When the bullet slows down and transitions to subsonic flight, rather than getting impacted by something IN FRONT OF IT which is now moving FASTER (which is obviously impossible) the bullet is in effect freed of the super-sonic drag effect. The only 'wave' the bullet gets impacted by is the shockwave created by the muzzle blast, which is usually quite a bit after, relatively speaking, the trans-sonic shift, and that muzzle blast having originated usually hundreds of meters away, is quite dissipated by the time it catches up to the bullet.

What DOES cause destabilization during slowing through the trans-sonic barrier, is the cessation of super-sonic drag, which is a reduction in pressure on the front of the bullet, which results in a change in the Centre of Gravity of the bullet to the front. This forward shift in CoG destabilizations the longditudinal rotation of the bullet and results in tumbling.

I did mention 1.5" groups in wind. I'm not trying to convince anyone all day everyday. Just saying it shoots good and if you like it it's an option.

There is about three football fields worth of difference between "Shoots good" and "0.5 MOA @ 100 meters all day every day."

Other posts that you have made undermine the degree of merit people will attach to this claim.

And I'm sure you will agree, wind does not affect a rounds ability to present a tight group. Variation in wind is the devil. I'd rather shoot in a dead steady 30 kph Southern Alberta Chinook then in the treacherous 0-5kph wind switches of the Ottawa valley.

You got me. I said it to impress random people I will never meet on the Internet to elevate my CGN status.

Quoted for Truth.

Wish i could find those targets. But apparently nobody would believe me anyways lol. Here's a fresh group I just did with the RPR. Maybe I should not have said half inch dime sized as I just measured a dime and it's like .709.

Anyways, 7/10 are dime sized. @.742 - 3 were a bit off today for whatever reason...

100 yards. CCI SV. Mild breeze.

I shot 3, 10 shot dime sized groups in a row, with this rifle. Which is about .709"

http://imgur.com/gallery/0F5wiY4

Now we are talking science. By my rough interpretation of the screen that one 10 shot group is about 3.5 dimes. What else you got?

Here is 10 shots @ 100 with 9 or 10 mph wind I just shot. 5/10 in .489" with gusts.

http://imgur.com/gallery/qulSKLP

5/10. In other words 15/30 if done 3 times. If you take this one with the previous sample you are 21/40 as being within the stated 0.5" zone. Assuming that these results are typical and represent an average distribution of Point of Impact, the statistical probability of you firing 30 consecutive shots in that 0.5" zone is approximately 1 in 90 billion. Because math.

Ditto, I’d like to see those groups with digital calipers showing the real measurements

Its not even close enough to need digital calipers. Assuming the target is a standard 1" square, you can easily see that counting all 10 shots are well above 1.5". On a flat monitor, you can make your own scaled ruler assuming a .205" diameter hole in the paper, and measure accordingly. His smallest group is at least 10 bullet holes wide.

5/10 are less than half inch with conditions that require wind call. Not sure how you don't see it in the pic? First pic has 7/10 less than .7 in breeze. Yeah 3 changed POI. Not sure why.

Well everyone else here knows why, and the reason is because you are shooting a factory .22lr rifle with standard quality ammo at 100m.

Not sure why it is so hard to believe that in absolutely zero wind the gun will hold about the size of a dime at 100? Indoors with no external factors the gun could do it.

Its hard to believe, because its highly improbable. The skilled and/or experienced 22lr shooters have the centuries of combined experience and millions of rounds fired. Custom match grade barrels, the best ammo human beings can make and the best shooters in the world would struggle to throw down that kind of performance on a consistent and on-demand basis.

When I said dime sized originally I didn't measure. I just remember shooting 3 ten shot groups last fall and saying holy sh*t those are dime sized which they were very close to.

Sorry for the misinformation as a dime is .709 I now see. So maybe the groups were .75 MOA.

Right. This would have been a much better story, where we all could have congratulated you for a great day at the range where you impressed yourself. Would have been happy to buy you a pint at the main street pub to celebrate.

Anyone here goes to the Stittsville Shooting Range DM me and you can see it for yourself.

Commence degrading me lol...

Not degrading. Just educating/responding. And would love a chance to see it for myself.

 

[zeegler]

I shoot 1 shot groups in .22 inches at 1000 yards...every time.

 

[Got Juice?]

I shoot 1 shot groups in .22 inches at 1000 yards...every time.

ok, but what do you drive to get within range? Also, what does the colour BLUE smell like? I hear it tastes like chicken, but smells like Bullsh.t.....

 

[Got Juice?]

5/10. In orderwords 15/30. If you take the previous sample you are 21/40 as being within the stated 0.5" zone. Assuming that these results are typical and represent an average distribution of rounds, the statistical probability of you firing 30 consecutive shots in that 0.5" zone is approximately 1 in 90 billion. Because math.

LMFAO, you won the internet today, now i need to wipe the coffee off the monitor.... hahahaaaa... Because math indeed...

 

[RabidM4U5]

Trans-sonic barrier is a thing. But not the thing that Longboat said it was:

We know his explanation is scientifically BS because the effect of transition from super sonic to sub sonic flight destabilizes ALL bullets, regardless of mass, diameter, or mass to diameter ratio.

We also know his explanation is BS because, physics. The shockwave created by the bullet's super-sonic travel is created by the bullet attempting to, and failing, to push the air in front of it out of the way. The air can't move fast enough (hence the limit to the speed of sound), and the resulting air piles up in front of the bullet, which is in essence, the shockwave. When the bullet slows down and transitions to subsonic flight, rather than getting impacted by something IN FRONT OF IT which is now moving FASTER (which is obviously impossible) the bullet is in effect freed of the super-sonic drag effect. The only 'wave' the bullet gets impacted by is the shockwave created by the muzzle blast, which is usually quite a bit after, relatively speaking, the trans-sonic shift, and that muzzle blast having originated usually hundreds of meters away, is quite dissipated by the time it catches up to the bullet.

What DOES cause destabilization during slowing through the trans-sonic barrier, is the cessation of super-sonic drag, which is a reduction in pressure on the front of the bullet, which results in a change in the Centre of Gravity of the bullet to the front. This forward shift in CoG destabilizations the longditudinal rotation of the bullet and results in tumbling.

Not saying the trans-sonic barrier doesn't exist, it does. I am contesting that it actually has a dramatic impact on accuracy as is so often stated. .22 LR is a fairly nose heavy bullet to begin with, tumbling has not been observed in many targets shot with HV ammo. In many long range targets shot, whatever impact the trans-sonic barrier may have on a bullet, is masked by the dispersion due to ammunition quality (rather, lack thereof).

To borrow from a poster on another forum, let us compare 200 yard results from CCI Green Tag (SV) and CCI Blazer (HV)

From the book, “Understanding Ballistics” by Robert Rinker, page 246

.22 Caliber Problems:
An increase in velocity decreases wind deflection, right ? Normally.
An exception to that rule is a .22 long rifle bullet. The airflow at Mach 1.0 is the reason. Air resistance is increased in this velocity range and a lot of air turbulence and pressure changes occur.
The delay time is affected out of proportion. The effect is in the velocity range 1,000 to 1,350 f.p.s. but the .22 rim fire is almost the only cartridge in this range.
Wind deflection is not controlled by time of flight but by the loss of velocity during the time of flight. During the transition velocity range above the speed of sound, the drag increases disproportionately higher then the velocity increases. In other words, if the velocity is increased by a small amount, the drag increases by a large amount. This situation is unique to this velocity range. At all other velocities, an increase in velocity will bring about a decrease in wind deflection. Not in the upper transition range. This is the reason for the special .22 match ammunition that is loaded so it will not go fast enough to get into this velocity range. The higher velocity .22 ammo has a flatter trajectory but is deflected more by a cross wind.

More prone to wind drift, no massively destabilizing trajectory alterations or tumbling.

I shoot 1 shot groups in .22 inches at 1000 yards...every time.

Into the backstop, or do you hit the paper?

 

[dryfire]

Entertaining , some extraordinary claims and interesting rationale against. Me thinks he is having you all on now and the disillusionment hasn't set in yet and he doesn't have the 'longboot' to step out of the morass.

 

[Erkel1]

Thanks for all the relevant info. This sure didnt go where i thought it would 8 pages ago.

 

[Cameron SS]

RabidM4U5.

Interesting. This is why study is always important. Theory always relies on assumptions that can often ignore important relationships between variables.

Few thoughts. What do you mean .22lr is "nose heavy". If it were a perfect cylinder it would be balanced at the midpoint. Because it is cone shaped and generally flat bottomed, the CoG will always be slightly rear of centre. Not sire how that would matter either.

The other important thing to know about any effect the trans sonic shift has is that this effect grows the further away from the point of the shift. Ie if the round drops sub sonic at 150, the small effect of CoG shift only has 50m to present, which at 1000fps and still relatively flat trajectory is marginal.

At 400 m, with more than 250 meters of unstable flight, at under 800 fps and a much more extreme angle of flight the effect will be significantly more pronounced.

 

[iain.quayle]

I shoot 1 shot groups in .22 inches at 1000 yards...every time.

.223

 

[r34skyline]

Vudoo is good but pricey. Anschutz has long been outstanding in the 22lr field. The cz rimfires offer great performance value. As does the savage mkii.

 

[RabidM4U5]

The ammo I shoot has a cupped base, a bullet pulled from a casing balanced just slightly ahead of center towards the nose. Consider how shotgun slugs fired from a smooth bore maintain some semblance of accuracy without spin, nose heavy design. Much like the birdie used in badminton. Then compare to a centerfire bullet like a ballistic tip, very long and slender nose, definitely base heavy. Just speculating, but if such a bullet had any wayward force applied to the nose, such as in the trans-sonic zone, that long nose could act like a lever on the center of gravity in the base and destabilize it. If the nose itself is the center of gravity, it's much more difficult to destabilize it with forces acting on the nose. I can picture perhaps "knuckleballing" around in the turbulence, but not actually destabilizing a nose heavy projectile. Just thoughts, don't hold me to it.

There lies a certain difficulty in producing meaningful data from extreme long range testing, such as 400m, with .22 LR. At that range, vertical dispersion due to MV variation is considerable, approximately 4 inches per 10 fps for SV ammo. 10 MPH crosswind drift is 65 inches. Combine that with general accuracy of the weapon, the random effects of updrafts, down drafts, and wind swirls all the way to the target, not to mention the cartridges themselves possibly having defects that could affect trajectory, and there's no telling where those rounds are going to end up, much less what is attributable to the trans-sonic zone when the HV ammo is tested. While interesting to think about, it is well beyond the design limits of this cartridge.

 

[Maple57]

Too lazy to post pics but I've been prepping for a rimfire PRS match for this weekend...

So far my CZ 452 seems to like Eley Force and spits out groups about 4.5 inches high and under an inch wide at 300 yards, and a little better than that at 250.

I have a few buddies who shoot with me... One has a new Ruger Precision Rimfire and one has a Sako Quad and nether of them are shooting nearly as well although the quad is closer.

FYI...My friend with the Ruger 22 regrets the purchase.

So if you want a nice rifle that is not terribly expensive, I would say get a CZ with a heavy varmint barrel.

A guy might like the Ruger Precision Rimfire for the coolness factor, but it is not as accurate as many will claim and it is not a contender next to a CZ. The action is crude and anything but smooth. For the money, you are better served by CZ and probably even Savage.

As for Anschutz, well they are top notch. I have a newish model 54 with peep sights and have yet to put a scope on it and try it at extended ranges, but I don't think it will do much better than the CZ. Out to 100, I would think the Annie will beat the CZ but at long range, the error is more in the ammo than the rifle.

I'd be real curious to see how other guys are doing at 300.

As for transonic barrier... I have tried about 20 kinds of ammo so far and through the scope at 24X I can watch how the hot hypersonic stuff dart about and cork screw around on the way to the target. Ammo under about 1200 FPS flies a more straight and deliberate path. The difference is clear to see through the scope and reflective of group size as well.