Ballistic program is way off compared to actual shot.

[hoytcanon]

Ballistic programs can't take all variables into consideration, you always have to test your actual combination... they do a better job if you can input accurate data.

 

[Maple57]

AB is a great program - make sure you get it set up right (zero height, zero offset, BC, MV, etc.) or you will be getting incorrect data (GIGO effect).

Not sure if spin drift and Coriolis (only has a 2-6" impact at 1000 yards really) will have much of an impact on 22 matches but getting the atmospherics correct will make things easier for sure.

It's not my intent to isolate or blame a singe variable.

The problem is the stacked effect of multiple sources of error... Plus being able to generate valid trajectory in an ad hoc manner… There are times when you don't know exactly what range you will be shooting on.

Even when it is not enough to take you off the plate... incorrect data reduces the size of the allowable error.

Ballistic programs can't take all variables into consideration, you always have to test your actual combination... they do a better job if you can input accurate data.

Absolutely... the data must be confirmed to real world results over time. Minor software adjustments may be required.

 

[Kane519]

I had a blast and learnt a lot from the match. My goal was to be in the middle of the field at the end of the day. Also, to see how my gear performed or failed because I've never shot out that far.

I didn't have a ballistic calculator but as you can imagine, one of the awesome guys on my squad helped me by inputted the projectile data into Strelok and texted the screen shots to me. Shooting Federal Auto Match 1200 fps.

I already have a tight group at 50 and a BDC out to 125 yards but anything beyond that, I was zeroing out on the stage. That first zero messed with my head but I was there to gain experience. After a few more zeros I noticed that I was dialing for meters but the screen shots were I yards. After dialing for yards I was getting hits again and ended up in the bottom third.

So, I feel that the real thing here is, how high were you expecting to place and ideally how high would you like to finish given your experience? Top 10 or 1st?

Don't take any truth from a greenhorn like me but I was happy being in the bottom 10 or 11 (can't remember don't care) but if you are happy with top third, awesome! It’s a good day. If you wanted higher than that maybe it just wasn't your day, you need more hours competing (lord knows I do) or you need a Kestrel.

That was probably the OP helping you out. I saw him helping someone with data early in the day.

 

[Big JD-From the hills]

Also check your scope/turret/rifle setup. Take a 1meter or more tall target. Run a length of tape vertical, place it down range and level it. Now you can put a aiming point near the base, fire off a group and move it up 4" or so and fire it at the same spot, repeat till your out of adjustment or target. You might find that your groups move off centerline one way or another, and that maybe your adjustments in your scope are not 100%. This is a great way to find out if your crosshairs are square to your turrets and if your rings are centered over the bore.

Keeping a properly setup rifle/scope setup dead level wile shooting distance is key, now throw in one that isn't checked out and having no way to verify level is an excercises in pure frustration trying to dial in hits at distance.

 

[Hitzy]

I'm interested to see how this "smart scope" technology evolves...
http://www.revicoptics.com

 

[rgv]

Did a bunch of ballistic results tests taking into consideration...

1) Effects of Changes in Temperature
2) Vertical Offset caused by wind speed and direction
3) Direction of shot (Rotation of earth)
4) Spin Drift
5) Muzzle velocity changes relative to temperature

Individually these variables seem almost insignificant, but collectively, no so much.

If you have a capable ballistic calculator, you can perform these calculations in advance for a specific range and develop a series of printed tables that you can refer to hopefully matching the scenarios you will encounter at the match.

If you attempt to use ballistic software that does not consider the points mentioned above, you will get some hits but your effective target size will be much smaller than it actually is. In reality you will miss a certain number of targets as a direct result of ballistic data error.

Do you “need” a Kestrel or Garmin 701?
No, not exactly, but it will certainly help.

Without it, you better be prepared to generate and organize a book of ballistic data for a specific match at a specific range.

This assumes you actually know what range you will be firing on when you get there and what direction the range is pointing.

There is certainly a lot of prep work described above and supports the conclusion that anyone who attempts to claim that doing well in a match is entirely the result of “shooting skill”, and not solid ballistic data, I will immediately lay down the BS card. You cannot have one without the other. High ranking in a match is the result of having both.... In addition to a plethora of other factors.

So ya… I downloaded and bought the Applied Ballistics phone app a couple days ago, which I used to conduct a post mortem and illustrate ballistic error is large enough to cause many of the misses I made at Aymer and Meaford.

Until recently I hoped that I could adjust on the fly during the match and overcome such error, but that thinking was born of complacency.

I also ordered a Garmin 701 which should arrive around the end of March.

It will be interesting to see how the numbers compare between my buddy’s Kestrel and the Garmin.

Will I win my next PRS match? I doubt it, but I’m confident that I’ll do a little better in the overall standings and have a little more fun. I hope to be able to spend more energy on breaking clean shots, and less energy on attempting to process what is not working when the data is not correct.

I am curious why you chose the Garmin 701 ahead of the Kestrel 5700 Elite ?

For any sort of PRS shooting, the advantages of the Garmin (GPS capability and compact size) don't really come into play, whereas the advantages of the Kestrel (ability to give average and peak wind) really do come into play.

The built-in electronic compass that allows you to capture wind speed & direction and direction of fire and instantly combine them into a firing solution bracketing the average and high wind is what really buys you time in a match as well, something else the Garmin is not (I don't think) capable of.

 

[Crouchy]

I had a blast and learnt a lot from the match. My goal was to be in the middle of the field at the end of the day. Also, to see how my gear performed or failed because I've never shot out that far.

I didn't have a ballistic calculator but as you can imagine, one of the awesome guys on my squad helped me by inputted the projectile data into Strelok and texted the screen shots to me. Shooting Federal Auto Match 1200 fps.

I already have a tight group at 50 and a BDC out to 125 yards but anything beyond that, I was zeroing out on the stage. That first zero messed with my head but I was there to gain experience. After a few more zeros I noticed that I was dialing for meters but the screen shots were I yards. After dialing for yards I was getting hits again and ended up in the bottom third.

So, I feel that the real thing here is, how high were you expecting to place and ideally how high would you like to finish given your experience? Top 10 or 1st?

Don't take any truth from a greenhorn like me but I was happy being in the bottom 10 or 11 (can't remember don't care) but if you are happy with top third, awesome! It’s a good day. If you wanted higher than that maybe it just wasn't your day, you need more hours competing (lord knows I do) or you need a Kestrel.

Hey man that was totally me helping you.... I am glad that your dope was good. At least once you saw the meter yard difference on the cards I sent you. My dope was bang on to 160yrds.... after that it took a dive. Only thing i have not done is a tall target dial test right to the end of my dialiable turrets. I think that is what I am doing next time I have a few free moments in daylight. Only thing I can figure is my inputted values are wrong or my turrets don't track quite right.

I agree with everyone here for different reasons... firstly you have to have the fundamentals down. I don't think anyone is arguing that.

Secondly I also agree that once you are a "decent" shooter having good dope will help. It helps in a few ways. It allows you to focus on building a solid position and then shoot with confidence of your dopes. Also when dealing with rounds that are very sensitive. Just like 22lr being temp and wind sensitive. Having real time data that is accurate is awesome.

I don't think any of us can argue those points... at least I hope.

I think in the end it is not gear that wins a shoot or hits a target. It is a combination of shooters skill and good dope (whether digitally figured or previously shot). I do believe however that gear helps to take a shooter from one level to another.

 

[Maple57]

I am curious why you chose the Garmin 701 ahead of the Kestrel 5700 Elite ?

For any sort of PRS shooting, the advantages of the Garmin (GPS capability and compact size) don't really come into play, whereas the advantages of the Kestrel (ability to give average and peak wind) really do come into play.

The built-in electronic compass that allows you to capture wind speed & direction and direction of fire and instantly combine them into a firing solution bracketing the average and high wind is what really buys you time in a match as well, something else the Garmin is not (I don't think) capable of.

I thought long and hard about that RGV.

1) My shooting buddy already has the Kestrel 5700 - he shots MILs I shoot MOA, so I don't like poaching the thing for numbers, but I see how well its working for him particularly during a match.
2) I've had a basic Kestrel and Dwyer for probably 25 years + , so I don't really need another wind device.
3) I can call the wind better than most anyway
4) The biggest challenge for me is keeping pace with the vertical changes over a wide range of weather changes.
5) I have more use for a new GPS than another weather meter.
6) The Garmin 701 was $200 cheaper

I've been shooting F Class like forever so I have the wind thing down pretty good, but in F Class I get to walk in the shots over a string of fire. It's a point of pride thing for me that the first shot is a good one, but there is no point cost if it isn't.

That "walk em in" does not work in PRS where its usually one shot then change to a new target from a new position at a different distance. It's just way more important to have the first shot right in PRS than F Class.

So for a total newb I would probably say get the Kestrel 5700, for me I think the Garmin 701 will correct the areas where I feel I could use the help.... Temperature (I got the Tempe), direction of fire, barometric pressure, aerodynamic jump.

BTW, the wife saw the credit card bill today with the Garmin on it... Lets just say its safe to say I wont be getting any nooky any time soon...

 

[Ryan.M.Anderson]

I thought long and hard about that RGV.

1) My shooting buddy already has the Kestrel 5700 - he shots MILs I shoot MOA, so I don't like poaching the thing for numbers, but I see how well its working for him particularly during a match.
2) I've had a basic Kestrel and Dwyer for probably 25 years + , so I don't really need another wind device.
3) I can call the wind better than most anyway
4) The biggest challenge for me is keeping pace with the vertical changes over a wide range of weather changes.
5) I have more use for a new GPS than another weather meter.
6) The Garmin 701 was $200 cheaper

I've been shooting F Class like forever so I have the wind thing down pretty good, but in F Class I get to walk in the shots over a string of fire. It's a point of pride thing for me that the first shot is a good one, but there is no point cost if it isn't.

That "walk em in" does not work in PRS where its usually one shot then change to a new target from a new position at a different distance. It's just way more important to have the first shot right in PRS than F Class.

So for a total newb I would probably say get the Kestrel 5700, for me I think the Garmin 701 will correct the areas where I feel I could use the help.... Temperature (I got the Tempe), direction of fire, barometric pressure, aerodynamic jump.

BTW, the wife saw the credit card bill today with the Garmin on it... Lets just say its safe to say I wont be getting any nooky any time soon...

Wait, you had a Kestrel the whole time? Why didn't you just buy AB or download Strelok?

 

[Maple57]

Wait, you had a Kestrel the whole time? Why didn't you just buy AB or download Strelok?

Well I did that too actually the same day I ordered the Garmin.... Since I was already disappointed with the Lapua app, I originally had assumed the AB phone app output would not be as good as what the Garmin or Kestrel would produce, but it seems they are quite close.

So now I have the AB phone app, the Garmin 701 and 2 wind meters.... My buddy has the Kestrel 5700... Now we can compare one to the other and hopefully synchronize output between all 3 ballistic calculators in a way that agrees with reality.

I'm excited to see once we get them all side by side if the output will be identical.

So far I have not been able to get the AB phone app to exactly correlate to the Garmin.... which one is right is TBD. Why the discrepancy is a curious point.

We're setting plates out to 1000 yards at a farm in the morning. Now the tweaking begins.

 

[Maple57]

So... I found a defect in the Applied Ballistics programming for the Garmin 701.

On the main screen you enter the shot distance, direction of fire and wind direction.

The direction of fire is via compass degrees but the wind direction is by the clock... so regardless of direction you are shooting the 3 oclock wind is always from the right.

On the main screen that is not a problem because it is relative to the one shot configuration of that screen.

The problem appears on the multi target screen where you can configure 10 targets in 10 directions.

In that screen... that 3 oclock wind applies from the hard right regardless of what direction you are shooting.

So if you have 1 target configure due east, another due west another due north and another due south, they will all have identical wind offset values, when they should be opposite to each other.

That is a serious oversight that could get a soldier killed on the battle field.

What it should do is use a compass bearing for the wind direction then apply that independently to the direction of each shot in the multi target table.

Its amazing that a product so well favored by most has such an obvious oversight.

I was shooting on the weekend with targets arranged out to 830 yards and over a 90 degree direction of fire, so the wind was wrong by 90 degrees for targets to the far left.

I hope Applied Ballistics corrects this problem is a free firmware upgrade.