ATRS MODERN SPORTER piston ?

[r34skyline]

I would consider retrofitting my AR with piston system because full cleaning of AR15 takes more time than my WW2 SVT-40 and because piston system runs colder. And because I shoot both it boggled my mind every time I cleaned them. Then I settled with "well, AR15 is just a tool that gets used, abused and thrown out", I just wipe BCG with CLP and send couple of patches down the barrel after each shooting, and do full cleaning only once in a season. It's actually very lame excuses, all these "AR15 doesn't need cleaning, just lubing", you know and key word is "excuse". With this approach any given piston system will outperform AR15 as it will be more clean after same number of rounds, but piston rifles crowd clean their rifles because it's so easy and quick and there's no need to come with lame excuses.... I definitely would have liked my AR15 more had it true piston system by design but well, nothing is perfect in this world.

Almost as lame an excuse as i can't be bothered to disassemble my bcg to clean it wouldn't you say?

If you care that much go ahead and clean it... ars have had no trouble going toe to toe with many piston guns and performed as good if not better than them while being lighter.

 

[cr5]

I would consider retrofitting my AR with piston system because full cleaning of AR15 takes more time than my WW2 SVT-40 and because piston system runs colder. And because I shoot both it boggled my mind every time I cleaned them. I had to compromise and settled with "well, AR15 is just a tool that gets used, abused and thrown out", I just wipe BCG with CLP and send couple of patches down the barrel after each shooting, and do full cleaning only once in a season. It's actually very lame excuses, all these "AR15 doesn't need cleaning, just lubing", you know and key word is "excuse". With this approach any given piston system will outperform AR15 as it will be more clean after same number of rounds, but piston rifles crowd clean their rifles because it's so easy and quick and there's no need to come with lame excuses.... I definitely would have liked my AR15 more had it true piston system by design but well, nothing is perfect in this world.

Funny thing is that of all the AR's I've owned (and it's a lot) I've never had to scrape carbon from anywhere even after running 1000 rounds with only a few patches down the bore and a couple drops of oil in/on the BCG about half way through. I've never had one quit working because it's dirty and that crap about pistons running cooler and cleaner is simply that, crap. They both make the same amount of heat regardless of design, piston guns dump their gasses under the handguard leaving a mess and adding to the heat you feel in your support hand. It just puts it in a different place but both require cleaning and lubrication at roughly the same intervals.

Full cleaning once a season is all they need, you can do it more often if you want but it's not going to stop working if you don't.
They each have positives and negatives. Nothing is perfect, even those precious piston guns.

Stop drinking the mall ninja cool-aid. I have multiple piston rifles and multiple DI guns, they all work.
Hell, even my blowback 9mm AR can easily run 1000+ without cleaning and it's hard to find a dirtier action than a blowback design.

 

[Horilka]

Sacred cow has been criticized...

 

[cr5]

Sacred cow has been criticized...

They're all piston operated, one is internal piston, one is external piston.
I love my external piston rifles but a piston on an AR is a solution to a problem that never existed unless you need to shoot your rifle full of water then it is most definitely a solution to a problem that does exist.
Unfortunately for the die-hard piston preachers, we as civilians are never in that situation unless we put our rifle there for no good reason other than to F it up.
And yes, even if you have a piston rifle that the manufacturer says is safe to shoot full of water you still wreck your barrel even if it doesn't explode in your face like a DI AR does.

 

[Horilka]

They're all piston operated, one is internal piston, one is external piston.
I love my external piston rifles but a piston on an AR is a solution to a problem that never existed...

Well, I could not agree more on the fact that AR15 is not DI. AR15 is a piston system without oprod, kind of hybrid of classical DI and classical Piston System.
Rifle getting dirty IS the problem. Full cleaning longer than WW2 piston rifle - IS the problem. Now, it will not affect your rifle the way you use it, true. As an engineer I'm just a bit disappointed every time I have to mention that clean and lubed mechanism is more reliable than same mechanism where you mix residue and dirt into lube. Now, I never claimed this creates practical problem your average shooter will experience, and I practice the same - just wipe and lube every time, total clean once in a season. However as a collector I value guns that were well-looked after, as an engineer I like to have my guns clean and knowing that my AR is not gives me discomfort. So I would have preferred to have true piston system on AR rather than existing hybrid DI, but I can live with what I have, AR is my match and pros of this rifle outweigh cons. Well thought piston system for AR would have addressed TWO problems I think my AR has, however existing implementations livability is not good or their cost are two high for my AR, it makes more sense to me to keep rifle as it is and treat her as expedient item.
You are also wrong in comparing piston system dumping dirt around the barrel and hybrid DI dumping it into moving and interacting mechanical parts. Dirt outside your barrel won't affect reliability of the system unlike dirt INSIDE mechanism. This is totally incomparable. However you are correct that piston system would create more heating in handguard area, this is disadvantage and also practical, I felt it many times when I was mag dumping cz858, though I dunno what part of heat was coming from the barrel and what part from gases under HG.

 

[Daver_II]

The only benefit I could see is less gas blowback into your eyes... but to each their own and let us know how it goes.

 

[scourge18a]

Anyone else own or use a POF rifle?
I would suggest them if you are after an AR piston gun.
Great quality, coatings and accuracy.

 

[cr5]

Well, I could not agree more on the fact that AR15 is not DI. AR15 is a piston system without oprod, kind of hybrid of classical DI and classical Piston System.
Rifle getting dirty IS the problem. Full cleaning longer than WW2 piston rifle - IS the problem. Now, it will not affect your rifle the way you use it, true. As an engineer I'm just a bit disappointed every time I have to mention that clean and lubed mechanism is more reliable than same mechanism where you mix residue and dirt into lube. Now, I never claimed this creates practical problem your average shooter will experience, and I practice the same - just wipe and lube every time, total clean once in a season. However as a collector I value guns that were well-looked after, as an engineer I like to have my guns clean and knowing that my AR is not gives me discomfort. So I would have preferred to have true piston system on AR rather than existing hybrid DI, but I can live with what I have, AR is my match and pros of this rifle outweigh cons. Well thought piston system for AR would have addressed TWO problems I think my AR has, however existing implementations livability is not good or their cost are two high for my AR, it makes more sense to me to keep rifle as it is and treat her as expedient item.
You are also wrong in comparing piston system dumping dirt around the barrel and hybrid DI dumping it into moving and interacting mechanical parts. Dirt outside your barrel won't affect reliability of the system unlike dirt INSIDE mechanism. This is totally incomparable. However you are correct that piston system would create more heating in handguard area, this is disadvantage and also practical, I felt it many times when I was mag dumping cz858, though I dunno what part of heat was coming from the barrel and what part from gases under HG.

I've owned 2 PWS piston rifles, a 10 inch in 300BLK and a 12 inch in 223. Both would shoot 1 moa fairly consistently with match ammo or my handloads and the 223 had about 5000 rounds through it when I sold it and it still looked like new on the inside.
The part about the DI rifle being dirtier is true but it's also a fairly good self cleaning system, with those gasses blowing out the carrier ports after the bolt rings pass is also a lot of carbon and other contamination from the burn. It takes a lot of rounds (or really dirty ammo) to get to where it's going to cause reliability issues as a civilian shooting semi auto.
A well built AR piston system, (in this case I'm familiar with the PWS, a long stroke piston system) When the rifle is re-engineered like the PWS or the HK you get a really great AR.
The handguard does get hotter when shooting higher volumes though

Nothing wrong with a clean rifle, all I'm saying is that it won't stop working every couple hundred rounds if all you do is clean the barrel whenever you notice the accuracy opening up and a little and give it a little oil from time to time. I know guys that run a full 3-gun season including practice with nothing more than a wipe and a couple drops of oil in the morning.
If we could shoot full auto and actually got things hot I'd clean more, or if I was competing I would clean them more often. But just for a range toy or sandpit blaster if it's a NR the risk of a failure is of no consequence and would actually be a good thing so you could practice stoppage drills.

 

[Mr_Mike]

thing is, carbon is a dry lube. it's not bad on its own
However if that carbon is suspended in a liquid (like oil or condensation), it forms a sludge which is bad.