Shot first batch of .308 hand-loads, got results, now how do I make them better?

[flashman2]

Good points to consider, a better scope would be ideal in the future, I’m sure.

Either a scope works or it doesn't. The Prostaffs are fine scopes, and MORE than sufficient for shooting out to 100 yards.

Higher end scopes have advantages in optical quality, accuracy and repeatability of adjustments, better features, durability, etc, BUT even a cheap scope that isn't broken won't result in a larger group size than an expensive scope.

The Prostaffs are excellent scopes and excellent scopes for the $. I wouldn't stress at all about shooting with one.

 

[flashman2]

What I do with all the rifles that I load is first create a dummy round with the chosen bullet, first get a cleaning rod and mark it with a section of masking tape. Put the type of bullet you intend to load into the chamber as far as it will go. Next insert your cleaning rod until it stops, put a small wrap of masking tape at that point and mark a fine line with a very sharp pencil r similar, and scribe a line as close to the muzzle as you can. Trial and error with an impact bullet puller and caliper until you are confident maximum seating depth has been achieved. Next back the bullet off 1/64th and there you have it, keep the blank to set your seating die from there on. I suggest with a 168 gr. bullet, 44 gr. of Varget with a Federal lr match primer, all is good.

I think you're mixing up two different methods there...

With the rod and tape method, you make one mark with the rod up against the bolt face, then another mark with the bullet seated up against the lands. The distance between is your max COAL.

If I'm understanding what you're saying right, the problem with just measuring where the bullet sits against the lands then making up a dummy cartridge to hit the same mark on the rod is you'll have no clue if that bullet in the dummy cartridge is jammed into the lands or not. You could easily have a round seated with 10 thou jam, not feel it on closing the bolt, and arrive at the same measurement as with a bullet seated loosely against the lands. This is no bueno. You will arrive at a misleading OAL measurement.

The method I outlined above will prevent this. The "slit case neck" method will not allow for jam. It had just enough tension to ensure the bullet is firmly against the lands without allowing it to get jammed in at all. You can feel the exact force it takes to seat the bullet deeper as you close the bolt, long before it starts camming shut. It also has the significant advantage of being a direct measurement, rather than an indirect measurement.

I don't even bother using my Stoney Point gauge to establish CBTO any more, the slit case neck method is just that easy and precise.

 

[flashman2]

Well - Someone had to bring it up - perhaps you are only capable of shooting ~ 2 inch groups. BTW - you mentioned that factory ammo shot slightly better. What bullet weight(s) did you try?

Errrrr... duh. An excellent and obvious point.

Perhaps have a known good shooter try the rifle...

Dogleg raises an excellent point. When you have an unproven rifle, unproven optic, unproven load and unproven shooter (no offence intended diopter, that's just my assumption based on what you've said) then you're effectively testing four things at once. That makes it tough to narrow it down. A known good shooter with good quality ammo will eliminate three of those off the bat if they can turn in acceptable groups with the rifle.

 

[flashman2]

I’m using a Sauer 101 classic, it uses an “ever rest” bedding system. I have not taken the receiver off to inspect it, but the reviews on it before purchase have been positive. Thanks

I'm totally unfamiliar with the Sauer 101 bedding system.

*Edit: ok, I had a look at it. It looks pretty straightforward, an alu block epoxied into the stock at the front, and nothing at the rear - or more precisely, it looks like the rear bedding block is an integral part of the trigger mech. It's far better than not having the alu bedding block there at all, but nothing approaching a full bedding job. It would still be entirely possible for the action to be stressed with that bedding system since there isn't a continuous bedding surface along the whole action length. That's what epoxy bedding will prevent.*

But.... when Ganderite reads a thread and comments, the smart man takes his advice. He's not just making a random suggestion, if there was another one to make, he'd make it.

As it happens, my current hobby horse is the .270 Win mentioned above. It's sitting in a B&C stock that - theoretically - should not need to be bedded nor really see improvement from doing so since it has a monolithic bedding block that the action sits on. Theoretically. The rifle shot excellently prior to bedding (the last two groups above were before I did so) but does indeed shoot ever so slightly better (read: more consistently) after bedding. It's safe to say that no rifle will be HURT by bedding it, you can only improve things. On the other hand, if you're not comfortable doing it yourself, I'd be inclined to spend the $300 on ammo and shoot more before I'd spend it on a gunsmith bedding job.

Like there's no replacement for displacement, there is NO substitute for trigger time. That includes dry fire practice too, btw...

If you haven't taken it apart yet, are you sure the action screws are tight and torqued correctly? I'm sorry, I didn't even think of it, but making sure the action is seated properly and screws are torqued correctly should be done before firing...

 

[Longboat]

True enough that a light 308 takes some skill to shoot half inch groups or even inch groups. You really have to be on top of your recoil management game. Natural point of aim has to be spot on. Positioning must be proper and consistent.

 

[Manwithoutastar]

What I do with all the rifles that I load is first create a dummy round with the chosen bullet, first get a cleaning rod and mark it with a section of masking tape. Put the type of bullet you intend to load into the chamber as far as it will go. Next insert your cleaning rod until it stops, put a small wrap of masking tape at that point and mark a fine line with a very sharp pencil r similar, and scribe a line as close to the muzzle as you can. Trial and error with an impact bullet puller and caliper until you are confident maximum seating depth has been achieved. Next back the bullet off 1/64th and there you have it, keep the blank to set your seating die from there on. I suggest with a 168 gr. bullet, 44 gr. of Varget with a Federal lr match primer, all is good.

I also have the hornady OAL case gauge which I can use for this. I have yet to do it. I was told that the throat in most .308s is larger than other calibers to accept a variety of bullet grain weights. And I’d never get close to the lands before exceed max mag length. What’s some other people’s thoughts on this?

 

[Manwithoutastar]

Well - Someone had to bring it up - perhaps you are only capable of shooting ~ 2 inch groups. BTW - you mentioned that factory ammo shot slightly better. What bullet weight(s) did you try?

Haha and some people have been more helpful than others. I have plenty of success shooting different calibers and rifles with fine groups over the years. Not a concern here, thanks though lol. I’m working on becoming a reloader for fun and hunting. Not joining a match anytime soon. Looking for good tips on here, and asking questions. If you go back and read most comments all of that is laid out. I have only tried 165 grain, I’m going to move on to different gr once I’m satisfied I have eliminated other variables, I’m using a weighted Caldwell bench rest and being very careful to eliminate myself. If that’s not working I should prob start selling off my rifles..and they’re 1.7” groups not 2” Hahahaha

 

[Manwithoutastar]

I'm totally unfamiliar with the Sauer 101 bedding system.

*Edit: ok, I had a look at it. It looks pretty straightforward, an alu block epoxied into the stock at the front, and nothing at the rear - or more precisely, it looks like the rear bedding block is an integral part of the trigger mech. It's far better than not having the alu bedding block there at all, but nothing approaching a full bedding job. It would still be entirely possible for the action to be stressed with that bedding system since there isn't a continuous bedding surface along the whole action length. That's what epoxy bedding will prevent.*

But.... when Ganderite reads a thread and comments, the smart man takes his advice. He's not just making a random suggestion, if there was another one to make, he'd make it.

As it happens, my current hobby horse is the .270 Win mentioned above. It's sitting in a B&C stock that - theoretically - should not need to be bedded nor really see improvement from doing so since it has a monolithic bedding block that the action sits on. Theoretically. The rifle shot excellently prior to bedding (the last two groups above were before I did so) but does indeed shoot ever so slightly better (read: more consistently) after bedding. It's safe to say that no rifle will be HURT by bedding it, you can only improve things. On the other hand, if you're not comfortable doing it yourself, I'd be inclined to spend the $300 on ammo and shoot more before I'd spend it on a gunsmith bedding job.

Like there's no replacement for displacement, there is NO substitute for trigger time. That includes dry fire practice too, btw...

If you haven't taken it apart yet, are you sure the action screws are tight and torqued correctly? I'm sorry, I didn't even think of it, but making sure the action is seated properly and screws are torqued correctly should be done before firing...

And here I am chalking this up to my reloading inexperience. Not you guys, got me questioning my over all shooting skills, my rifle, scope and gunsmithing skills, haha all things to consider, I’m still having fun though. I will take the stock off and check the torque on those action screws. Bedding wouldn’t hurt I agree, it’s prob a bit further down my checklist, if I can’t improve the loads, again this was only test one. Thank you sir have been very helpful!

 

[Manwithoutastar]

True enough that a light 308 takes some skill to shoot half inch groups or even inch groups. You really have to be on top of your recoil management game. Natural point of aim has to be spot on. Positioning must be proper and consistent.

I’m testing these work loads on a Caldwell weighted rest. I’m being super cautious with the POA, open to any other suggestions. Got about 1” groups with federal fusion 165 gr with much cheaper rest, but was also not trying for more than 3 shot groups with that ammo. To clarify, I’m getting 1.7” with 5 shot groups. The work loads I produced did have .4” groups of 3, just seem to get more flyers in the 5 shot groups, naturally. Than you.

 

[Longboat]

I also have the hornady OAL case gauge which I can use for this. I have yet to do it. I was told that the throat in most .308s is larger than other calibers to accept a variety of bullet grain weights. And I’d never get close to the lands before exceed max mag length. What’s some other people’s thoughts on this?

Depends on the particular gun and mag. My Bergara with AI mags can not get close to the rifling when fed from the mag with Hornady 168 ELDM. I have to jump .050" although the gun does not seem to mind the jump at all.

My buddies just got an RPR in 308 and we were able to start .020 off the rifling for load development. And can be loaded even closer to the lands maybe even touch them.

 

[Manwithoutastar]

Depends on the particular gun and mag. My Bergara with AI mags can not get close to the rifling when fed from the mag with Hornady 168 ELDM. I have to jump .050" although the gun does not seem to mind the jump at all.

My buddies just got an RPR in 308 and we were able to start .020 off the rifling for load development. And can be loaded even closer to the lands maybe even touch them.

Yes this makes sense. Thanks

 

[Longboat]

Not that I have shot that much Nosler, but what I have fired has not exactly been amazing accuracy.

You could check bedding, scopes, on and on...

I would just drab a box of SMK 168 or 175 and try those out. If they don't shoot those at least pretty good I may start to wonder after that. I just think it's the projectIle you are using. But that's just my opinion and the next guy will probably disagree and tell you who knows what.

 

[Manwithoutastar]

Not that I have shot that much Nosler, but what I have fired has not exactly been amazing accuracy.

You could check bedding, scopes, on and on...

I would just drab a box of SMK 168 or 175 and try those out. If they don't shoot those at least pretty good I may start to wonder after that. I just think it's the projectIle you are using. But that's just my opinion and the next guy will probably disagree and tell you who knows what.

Yes this is exactly what I’m thinking haha. I get it, you can post first day results on here and naturally people don’t know if you’re taking pot shots from a tree branch at a tin sign, this is fair haha, I know there’s tons of variables to precision shooting, And you gotta ask em...I’m just hoping my barrel got indigestion from Nosler, more testing will unveil this lol at this point I’m just looking for tips at the reloading bench.

 

[cosmic]

Hmmm - Its been my experience that a good load (ie bullet and powder combo) will show promise "right out of the gate". When I pick up a new rifle, I'll load up 5 rounds with a known good powder and various bullet weights. Whichever bullet weight shoots best gets the nod for further testing.
As these are typically hunting rifles, I'll use a flat based spire point bullet. Bear in mind that flat based bullets are easier to make with pure geometry than boat-tails (unless you buy very expensive match-style bullets), and offer no dis-advantage wrt ballistics at hunting rifle distances, say up to 300 y.
Finally, are you letting your barrel cool between shots? Your comment about 5 shot strings opening up cause me to pose this question...

 

[Manwithoutastar]

Hmmm - Its been my experience that a good load (ie bullet and powder combo) will show promise "right out of the gate". When I pick up a new rifle, I'll load up 5 rounds with a known good powder and various bullet weights. Whichever bullet weight shoots best gets the nod for further testing.
As these are typically hunting rifles, I'll use a flat based spire point bullet. Bear in mind that flat based bullets are easier to make with pure geometry than boat-tails (unless you buy very expensive match-style bullets), and offer no dis-advantage wrt ballistics at hunting rifle distances, say up to 300 y.
Finally, are you letting your barrel cool between shots? Your comment about 5 shot strings opening up cause me to pose this question...

Yes, I have considered temp, this was also discussed earlier in the comments. So it’s a possibility, although the Sauer are reported to shoot well even after heating up which was why it was not a concern when I went out. I have only tried that 165 bullet weight, so there’s a good chance it has something to do with that. Loading different weights to include in preliminary testing may be a good idea in the future.

 

[flashman2]

Yes, I have considered temp, this was also discussed earlier in the comments. So it’s a possibility, although the Sauer are reported to shoot well even after heating up which was why it was not a concern when I went out. I have only tried that 165 bullet weight, so there’s a good chance it has something to do with that. Loading different weights to include in preliminary testing may be a good idea in the future.

If I spent north of 2k on a rifle that didn't shoot with a hot barrel I'd want my money back. If a $475 dollar rifle can stack bullets on top of each other with a hot barrel than a $2200 one should too.

 

[flashman2]

Not that I have shot that much Nosler, but what I have fired has not exactly been amazing accuracy.

You could check bedding, scopes, on and on...

I would just drab a box of SMK 168 or 175 and try those out. If they don't shoot those at least pretty good I may start to wonder after that. I just think it's the projectIle you are using. But that's just my opinion and the next guy will probably disagree and tell you who knows what.

Yup to all that.

Shooting a box of FGMM would be a very useful exercise.

I would also try to find an experienced shooter / reloader local to you and get some mentoring. Or go to an RNBRA shoot. Five minutes of coaching on the range will be more useful for you than this whole thread.