.44 Russian in 44-40 revolver.... ?

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Sharps '74

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Most people know that in a .44 mag chamber, you can safely shoot .44 Spl. and .44 Russian. Likewise, in a .45 Colt chamber, you can shoot .45 Schofield and the .45 'Cowboy'. The latter is a case designed for CAS which is the same length as a .45 ACP but with a .45 Colt rim.

I looked at the case specs for .44 Russian and 44-40 and Lo!, the .44 Russian case is withing a couple of thou of a 44-40 up to where the shoulder starts, the 44-40 being a bottle neck case with a slight taper. The .44 Russian chambers just fine. The next thing to do was to shoot some and see the results.

Accuracy was excellent, grouping at the same POI as 44-40s with the same 200 gr LRNFP. Recoil was negligible, rapid recovery between shots. No wonder people like shooting the .45 'Cowboy' in .45 Colt revolvers!

The slight difference in rim diameter was a concern, but primer hits in Pietta 44-40 SAAs was dead centre and you'd need a micrometer to detect any case deformation. By feel and to the naked eye they appeared unchanged and they would easily resize back to original specs.

I was assured by the mavens on the Cas City forum that doing this would result in babies dying and birds falling from the sky. That just ain't so. I don't necessarily recommend this, but it works.

Years ago The late Major (R'td.) George Nonte wrote articles on doing such things when specific brass was unobtainable. Likewise General Julian Hatcher enjoyed shooting .380 ACP in P-08s and P-38s, operating the actions by hand to eject cases. It pays to experiment.
 
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I would have expected a fairly visible bulge just above the head of the case but not surprised that it works out okay. Maybe a minimum spec chamber so it's not too noticable.

Probably have the cases cracking after relatively few reloads if you're reusing them for that purpose.
 
It may well shorten the case life of .44 Russian brass by so doing, but the trade off might be worth it.

So far I've fired them in three 44-40 revolvers - two Piettas and one Uberti. Results were satisfactory in all. The Uberti has tight chambers and requires .427s in 44-40 brass but eats .429s loaded in .44 Russian cases. The Piettas happily eat .429s in both.
 
Well there you go then.Got a couple hundred Win 200gr .426 or .427 jacketed I can part with.Unless you're partial to running just cast.
 
Sharps '74 said:
It may well shorten the case life of .44 Russian brass by so doing, but the trade off might be worth it.

So far I've fired them in three 44-40 revolvers - two Piettas and one Uberti. Results were satisfactory in all. The Uberti has tight chambers and requires .427s in 44-40 brass but eats .429s loaded in .44 Russian cases. The Piettas happily eat .429s in both.
Click to expand...

Running the shorter Russian shells basically makes the necked part of the 44-40 chamber become the leade or throat.
I wouldn't be at all surprised if .430 bullets shot really well this way even if the bore is .427 or something.
 
Shooting ANY ammo in a 1st Gen Colt SAA will likely cause more than normal wear & tear. I knew a guy in CAS that shot one with 6 grs of Bulls Eye under 250 gr bullets! I kept waiting for the cylinder to part. That was gun abuse.

Yes, the shoulder and neck of the 44-40 chamber would seem to act as a leade/throat, which might be a good thing. I haven't miked the bore diameter of any of them, but they all shoot .427/.429 accurately. Same for my 44-40 rifle/carbines.

Steve Garbe in BPCN experimented with 45-70 bullets .457/.458/.459 in one of his BPCR's and found no appreciable difference. Might be different with jacketed bullets, but not an issue with lead.
 
Sharps '74 said:
Steve Garbe in BPCN experimented with 45-70 bullets .457/.458/.459 in one of his BPCR's and found no appreciable difference. Might be different with jacketed bullets, but not an issue with lead.
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Not an appreciable difference in one rifle doesn't make it a rule for every rifle.

My experience says that sizing does make a great deal of difference in some rifles and circumstances. Making generalizations based on one instance and applying it to everything that shoots lead bullets is a bit misleading.

The bore dimensions are not the only consideration when shooting cast.
 
not sure why any one would want to do this on a regular practice ? but then again it could solve a problem that does not currently exist as both ammo are somewhat available
 
I'll be taking the high road on this issue. As a Canadian citizen and as card carrying (RPAL) firearms enthusiast, I have sworn allegiance to the Canadian Firearms training manual, in return I have been granted the privilege of owning and shooting firearms.

Section 13 on cartridges states: (below is the quoted excerpt from the book)

13.3. Cartridges
13.3.0. Overview
a. A cartridge is the ammunition used in a firearm. Two kinds of cartridges
commonly available are: rim-fire and centre-fire. These terms describe where the
primer is located at the base of the cartridge casing. They also describe where
the firing pin strikes.
b. Manufacturers produce firearms of many calibers. Always make sure that the
cartridge name on the head stamp (Figure 92) matches the information on the
data stamp, on the barrel or slide of the firearm (Figure 93), if available. This is
the most important point to remember. Then choose the right type of ammunition
for your firearm and target. The right shape or weight of the bullet is an example.
If in doubt, consult a firearms or ammunition dealer.
c. If there is no data stamp, take the firearm to a qualified individual. They can
measure the chamber and advise on proper ammunition. Additional information
is available from manufacturer’s catalogues and brochures.
d. Many firearm owners load their own centre-fire ammunition. This allows them to
save money and create a high quality product made specifically for their firearm
and shooting conditions.
e. Incorrectly loaded ammunition may cause the firearm to malfunction or jam.
Malfunctions could lead to an incident. The firearm could blow up and injure the
shooter. Do not accept or use reloaded cartridges unless you know that they
were made and reloaded correctly.

There aren't any provisos, exceptions or other reasons that you do not need to follow the rules.
 
Good general advice when practicable.

Once a shooter, reloader, cartridge converter has a sufficient amount of knowledge and experience it's possible to go beyond that advice. Like everything else related to the government it has its limitations....

Please Sir, would you provide me with the properly marked cartridges for my 9.4 Dutch service revolver, 11mm French ordinance, 1871 .50 Army rolling block pistol and 44 Merwin Hulbert?

Once you have dealt with things like this you realize there are many opportunities to skin a cat in a variety of ways to different purposes.
 
pmatuk said:
not sure why any one would want to do this on a regular practice ? but then again it could solve a problem that does not currently exist as both ammo are somewhat available
Click to expand...

Did I not say that I didn't necessarily recommend it? I wanted to see if it would work and it did. If I thought for a moment that it was an unsafe practice (based on evidence, not theory) I wouldn't have done it.

As for bore diameter for 45-70, Mike Venturino has written that he abused a bullet mould and it thereafter produced out of round bullets. They shot just fine in his rifles. Obturation in the bore was the cure.
 
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nitro-express said:
I'll be taking the high road on this issue. As a Canadian citizen and as card carrying (RPAL) firearms enthusiast, I have sworn allegiance to the Canadian Firearms training manual, in return I have been granted the privilege of owning and shooting firearms.

Section 13 on cartridges states: (below is the quoted excerpt from the book)

13.3. Cartridges
13.3.0. Overview
a. A cartridge is the ammunition used in a firearm. Two kinds of cartridges
commonly available are: rim-fire and centre-fire. These terms describe where the
primer is located at the base of the cartridge casing. They also describe where
the firing pin strikes.
b. Manufacturers produce firearms of many calibers. Always make sure that the
cartridge name on the head stamp (Figure 92) matches the information on the
data stamp, on the barrel or slide of the firearm (Figure 93), if available. This is
the most important point to remember. Then choose the right type of ammunition
for your firearm and target. The right shape or weight of the bullet is an example.
If in doubt, consult a firearms or ammunition dealer.
c. If there is no data stamp, take the firearm to a qualified individual. They can
measure the chamber and advise on proper ammunition. Additional information
is available from manufacturer’s catalogues and brochures.
d. Many firearm owners load their own centre-fire ammunition. This allows them to
save money and create a high quality product made specifically for their firearm
and shooting conditions.
e. Incorrectly loaded ammunition may cause the firearm to malfunction or jam.
Malfunctions could lead to an incident. The firearm could blow up and injure the
shooter. Do not accept or use reloaded cartridges unless you know that they
were made and reloaded correctly.

There aren't any provisos, exceptions or other reasons that you do not need to follow the rules.
Click to expand...

It's a pity that General Julian Hatcher and Major Nonte are not alive so that you could wave your book under their noses. Both men did things contrary to the general norm.

"Everybody knows ..." that 9mm headspaces on the cartridge rim, right? Hatcher proved that the extractor held the cartridge in place sufficiently for the firing pin of a Luger or P-38 to fire .380s just fine, but they didn't eject.

A custom 'smith and reloader (Hayley?) in the US makes and sells all kinds of odd ball ammo for odd ball guns, including pin fire rds that utilize a percussion cap inside the case for ignition. He also makes cases with off set holes to accept a RF blank for rim fire Civil War carbines not easily converted to CF like the Spencer.
 
Hatcher and Nonte were Americans, living in the USA. Different rules altogether. Americans do not need training or need a PAL.

And BTW, it's our book, the Canadian Firearms Safety Course manual, and Canadian firearms owners are held to a slightly higher standard than most other countries. I came very close to being banned on another forum for even mentioning a similar multi chamber firearm. There were, and perhaps still are, gunsmiths that would ream the 44-40 chamber to accommodate 44 Special cartridges. You could still fire 44-40, but 44 Russian and 44 Special could also be fired in the firearm. I loaded some 7x57 ammunition for my son, I used 6mm Rem brass, he refuses to shoot it. It goes against his firearms safety training. I'm a fossil, owned and handloaded firearms before the FAC, sometimes have a hard time accepting that what I did is no longer allowed or not considered safe practice now.

If you shoot Cowboy Action, here's their rule: "All center-fire or rim-fire ammunition must be designed to package the bullet, gunpowder, and primer into a single metallic case precisely made to fit the firing chamber of the firearm."

It was not my intent to wave anything under anyone's nose, but I was saying that putting a 44 Russian shell in a 44-40 chamber goes against our basic firearms training, and in a CAS meet, you would probably be disqualified for having ammunition that did not precisely fit the chamber.

Sort of like the difference between "could" and "should". Could you load and shoot 44 Russian ammunition in your 44-40? I think you could, and in all likelihood your firearm would not be damaged, and you probably would not be maimed or killed. Should you load and shoot 44 Russian ammunition in your 44-40? I think you should not. 44-40 ammunition is available, 44 Russian ammunition does not fit the chamber precisely enough, and the practice is deemed unacceptable according to the Canadian Firearms Safety Training manual.

And further to my conviction, I'll quote SAAMI:

"Therefore, in the interest of safety, you should use only ammunition of the caliber or gauge
designated by the firearm manufacturer for use in that firearm. Markings indicating the correct caliber or
gauge of ammunition to be used in a firearm are usually found on the firearm’s barrel, frame or receiver.
One way to verify that you are using the correct ammunition is to check the head stamp on the
ammunition to confirm that it matches the caliber or gauge markings placed on the firearm by the
firearm’s manufacturer. Some types of ammunition do not have markings on the head stamp of the
cartridge. In that case, check the original ammunition packaging to determine its caliber. If you have any
doubt about the caliber of the ammunition, you should not use the ammunition until you have it examined
by a qualified person who can determine its caliber. Remember just because a round of ammunition can
fit into a firearm's chamber, barrel or action does not mean it is safe to use that ammunition in the
firearm."
 
nitro-express said:
Hatcher and Nonte were Americans, living in the USA. Different rules altogether. Americans do not need training or need a PAL.

And BTW, it's our book, the Canadian Firearms Safety Course manual, and Canadian firearms owners are held to a slightly higher standard than most other countries. I came very close to being banned on another forum for even mentioning a similar multi chamber firearm. There were, and perhaps still are, gunsmiths that would ream the 44-40 chamber to accommodate 44 Special cartridges. You could still fire 44-40, but 44 Russian and 44 Special could also be fired in the firearm. I loaded some 7x57 ammunition for my son, I used 6mm Rem brass, he refuses to shoot it. It goes against his firearms safety training. I'm a fossil, owned and handloaded firearms before the FAC, sometimes have a hard time accepting that what I did is no longer allowed or not considered safe practice now.

If you shoot Cowboy Action, here's their rule: "All center-fire or rim-fire ammunition must be designed to package the bullet, gunpowder, and primer into a single metallic case precisely made to fit the firing chamber of the firearm."

It was not my intent to wave anything under anyone's nose, but I was saying that putting a 44 Russian shell in a 44-40 chamber goes against our basic firearms training, and in a CAS meet, you would probably be disqualified for having ammunition that did not precisely fit the chamber. Sort of like the difference between "could" and "should". Could you load and shoot 44 Russian ammunition in your 44-40? I think you could, and in all likelihood your firearm would not be damaged, and you probably would not be maimed or killed. Should you load and shoot 44 Russian ammunition in your 44-40? I think you should not. 44-40 ammunition is available, 44 Russian ammunition does not fit the chamber precisely enough, and the practice is deemed unacceptable according to the Canadian Firearms Safety Training manual.

And further to my conviction, I'll quote SAAMI:

"Therefore, in the interest of safety, you should use only ammunition of the caliber or gauge
designated by the firearm manufacturer for use in that firearm. Markings indicating the correct caliber or
gauge of ammunition to be used in a firearm are usually found on the firearm’s barrel, frame or receiver.
One way to verify that you are using the correct ammunition is to check the head stamp on the
ammunition to confirm that it matches the caliber or gauge markings placed on the firearm by the
firearm’s manufacturer. Some types of ammunition do not have markings on the head stamp of the
cartridge. In that case, check the original ammunition packaging to determine its caliber. If you have any
doubt about the caliber of the ammunition, you should not use the ammunition until you have it examined
by a qualified person who can determine its caliber. Remember just because a round of ammunition can
fit into a firearm's chamber, barrel or action does not mean it is safe to use that ammunition in the
firearm."
Click to expand...

I can add up being around several million rounds of CAS fire of which a very large portion of those "millions" were .38 SP fired in a .357 Mag chamber...and not one question over their use in 19 years of personal participation....The gun world of Canada sure needs more of your type around....
 
fingers284 said:
I can add up being around several million rounds of CAS fire of which a very large portion of those "millions" were .38 SP fired in a .357 Mag chamber...and not one question over their use in 19 years of personal participation....The gun world of Canada sure needs more of your type around....
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38 Spl in 357 Mag, entirely different IMHO, I don't see the correlation.

You didn't exactly say that shooting 44 Russian ammunition in a 44-40 chamber is a recommended and safe practice, but you did imply; that because a 38 Spl fits and fires in a 357 Mag chamber, it stands to reason that it is OK to fire 44 Russian in a 44-40 chamber. You haven't convinced me, and it appears that my reasoning and references haven't convinced you that it shouldn't be done.

It does seem that we'll have to agree to disagree.
 
No one is trying to convince anyone of anything here - except for you.

Not only "could" you shoot .44 Russian in a 44-40 revolver, you CAN. That was the point.

Check out the specs on the cases like I did. Then check out the variance between Star-Line, Winchester and Remington 44-40 brass. Not all brass is created equal. Then we have the matter of dies. I have three sets of 44-40 dies from different makers and they produce ammo of three different dimensions, not all in accordance with what the manual says. Some are almost a force chamber fit, others drop in and out freely.

You are aware that General Hatcher ran the US Springfield Armory and was a noted firearms expert and ballistician, right? Likewise Major Nonte had credentials as an experimenter and developer of ammunition. He pioneered the hot loading of IPSC 9mm "Major" loads, thousands of which are fired daily in competition. He did so by safely exceeding the SAAMI standards for 9mm at the time. It took the industry a long time to catch up.

Fingers284 made the point that strictly speaking according to the book, .38 Spl. cannot be fired in a .357 chamber safely without risk to the gun and shooter. Yet thousands of these are fired daily. I've cut down .38 Spl. cases to fit my original Colt .38 "Lightning" which are not identical to currently available factory .38 Colt cases. The world as we know it remains unshaken.

You stated that the .44 Russian cases does not fit the chamber "precisely'' and therefore is unacceptable by the CFST manual. Fine. I can live with that. There are any number of governmental guidelines and documents I disregard on a regular basis.

You are quite correct in stating that the mavens in CAS would have a sh!t fit at a SASS sanctioned event if they knew a shooter was shooting .44 Russian in 44-40 revolvers. That is why I won't do it at an upcoming major event the July long week end and I'll confine their use to our local CAS events, if I use them at all.

You did not comment on the specialty odd ball ammunition made by Hayley for which there are no current SAAMI specs. How do we know he is within factory specs, other than the fact that his ammo works and his customers are satisfied, no guns are being blown up and no shooters injured?

You must be a joyous person if you apply this 'by-the-book' rationale to every aspect of your life. I suspect that you are insured to the hilt against any and all possibilities.
 
nitro-express said:
I'll be taking the high road on this issue. As a Canadian citizen and as card carrying (RPAL) firearms enthusiast, I have sworn allegiance to the Canadian Firearms training manual, in return I have been granted the privilege of owning and shooting firearms.

Section 13 on cartridges states: (below is the quoted excerpt from the book)

13.3. Cartridges
13.3.0. Overview
a. A cartridge is the ammunition used in a firearm. Two kinds of cartridges
commonly available are: rim-fire and centre-fire. These terms describe where the
primer is located at the base of the cartridge casing. They also describe where
the firing pin strikes.
b. Manufacturers produce firearms of many calibers. Always make sure that the
cartridge name on the head stamp (Figure 92) matches the information on the
data stamp, on the barrel or slide of the firearm (Figure 93), if available. This is
the most important point to remember. Then choose the right type of ammunition
for your firearm and target. The right shape or weight of the bullet is an example.
If in doubt, consult a firearms or ammunition dealer.
c. If there is no data stamp, take the firearm to a qualified individual. They can
measure the chamber and advise on proper ammunition. Additional information
is available from manufacturer’s catalogues and brochures.
d. Many firearm owners load their own centre-fire ammunition. This allows them to
save money and create a high quality product made specifically for their firearm
and shooting conditions.
e. Incorrectly loaded ammunition may cause the firearm to malfunction or jam.
Malfunctions could lead to an incident. The firearm could blow up and injure the
shooter. Do not accept or use reloaded cartridges unless you know that they
were made and reloaded correctly.

There aren't any provisos, exceptions or other reasons that you do not need to follow the rules.
Click to expand...

I suspect sarcasm but I'm still gonna call BS. Most respectfully. :)

That rule is good for inexperienced first time shooters and that's all it is. There are many reasons why an experienced reloader might use ammo with a different headstamp than the firearm. People who don't even know what those reasons are will not be experienced enough that explaining it will matter. They should definitely follow that rule because that's the best they can be at their level of incompetence.

Meanwhile, I load at least 8 or 10 different cartridges for which properly headstamped brass is unavailable commercially and I make the brass by reforming and converting available brass. So the head stamp is wrong. I am perfectly competent to do so and I know it. You have the ability to accept that you are not competent to do so, and I respect your common sense to realize it. Just don't try to impose your limitations on me and we can both be happy.
 
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A quick perusal of the latest revision of the CFSC manual also shows that it doesn't say anything about using shotshells that are shorter than a shotgun's chamber, either. Matching headstamp to firearm marking is a good rule of thumb with lots of exceptions. Rules are not a replacement for good sense.

In comparing dimensions of the two, .44 Russian in .44-40 looks like something that isn't best practice, but would work in a pinch.
 
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