Optimal Barrel Length for 22LR Subsonic

grauhanen said:
Some CF caliber barrels come in a variety of twists. The .223 Remington, for example, is available with many different twist rates, among them 1:8, 1:9, 1:10, 1:12, 1:14. Pairing CF bullet weight and length to barrel twist is important for CF accuracy.

Readers and posters should be aware that when it comes to .22LR barrels, there is very little choice when it comes to twist rates. Barrels for .22LR typically don't come with optional twist rates, the standard being near 1:16. With the .22LR it's not possible to easily shop around for the twist rate of choice. To be sure there are some unusual twist rates that can be found, Lilja, for example has a 1:17. But the vast majority of .22LR barrels are all close to 1:16. In short, it's not easy to find alternative twist rates in .22LR barrels as it is with some CF calibers.

As far as .22LR accuracy, the best is achieved with 40 grain round nose standard velocity ammo. There are many varieties of such ammo, some of it with very good accuracy (and often more expensive) and some of it not so good (and often quite inexpensive). The unusual 60 grain Aguila round is not comparably accurate to good SV 40 grain ammo no matter what twist rate barrel it passes through.
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There aren't dozens of choices but there are some and I am experimenting with them. 17, 16, 15, 14, 10, 9 are all possible. Why no 12, don't know?

My focus is LR rimfire for PRS and ELR shooting. The ammo used will all be a 40gr subsonic of match quality... might try some heavier stuff but I think the QC on the match stuff will be better.

Testing so far out to 425yds has been very positive... 1st rimfire PRS match was also very positive (went to 300m)

Another barrel in the works for fall testing.

WRT to length, really doesn't matter once you go 16" or longer. I am choosing my barrel dimensions based on balance and handling

PM or email if you want to discuss further

Jerry
 
Mystic Precision said:
There aren't dozens of choices but there are some and I am experimenting with them. 17, 16, 15, 14, 10, 9 are all possible. Why no 12, don't know?
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A lot of things may be possible. Whether they are practical is another issue. This raises a few questions. How does SV and HV ammo respond to faster twist rates? Do faster twist rates than standard make available ammo more accurate at any distance? How readily available are these barrels with different twist rates? If someone wanted one, are these unusual barrels weeks away or months away? Is there a demand outside of experimentation for such barrels?
 
I can answer the supply side... lead times are typical of any new barrel order coming out of the US.

As to what does what with which ammo? I am experimenting with a few options for my tasks and goals.... so far, things are working great. I am waiting on another barrel to see if I can improve things even more.

For those interested in testing, there are now rimfire actions, besides the 10/22, where barrel swaps are easy. Just pick your spec and away you go.

I lean on the 10/22 because those barrels are the least expensive (for the most part) and offered through the widest number of sources. wrt to interest, there are definitely shooters in the LR PRS game who are willing to invest in the ideas I am working with. If they also do well, I am sure demand will grow

No different then centerfire...

Jerry
 
Mystic Precision said:
My focus is LR rimfire for PRS and ELR shooting. The ammo used will all be a 40gr subsonic of match quality... might try some heavier stuff but I think the QC on the match stuff will be better.

Testing so far out to 425yds has been very positive... 1st rimfire PRS match was also very positive (went to 300m)

WRT to length, really doesn't matter once you go 16" or longer. I am choosing my barrel dimensions based on balance and handling
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I agree that barrel dimensions should be what feels good, what handles and balances well for the shooter. If a rifle doesn't handle and balance well, it's all the more difficult to shoot it accurately, no matter what the barrel length.

Mystic Precision said:
As to what does what with which ammo? I am experimenting with a few options for my tasks and goals.... so far, things are working great. I am waiting on another barrel to see if I can improve things even more.
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While not specifically making the claim, you imply that with SV match ammo you are getting improved accuracy with twist rates other than the standard rate of about 1:16. Is the accuracy better at more traditional .22LR distances such as 50 and 100 yards -- or is it better only at greater distances? If your accuracy is indeed improved over the standard twist rate, with what twist rate is this occurring?
 
hoytcanon said:
That is a WILDLY over-simplified statement...
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Hmmm, WILDLY???

Not at all. It's the foundation of all to follow.

In the context of this thread we are talking about low velocity ammo and advice posted has not taken into account that the velocity has implications on accuracy with standard barrel twist rates.

You can take an Anschutz that produces 1/2 groups at 100 yards with Eley Tenex and then try 60 Grain sub sonics and be lucky to hit the paper.

That is not just what the rifle does or does not like... that is basic physics.

Since the 60 grain bullet is extra long it needs to spin faster to establish gyroscopic stability.

Since it is also moving slower, it also needs to spin faster yet.

Its a perfect example of the need to balance all of the above and its the basis of developing accuracy.

Take for example a typical 100 yard center fire bench gun... it will use slow 1:16 twist rates with light short bullets. This is the exact opposite of what is used for F Class where the longest heaviest bullets are used with 1:8 twist barrels.... even in the same velocity range.

Before you begin any accuracy discussion you need to start with the bullet and expected velocity parameters to determine the barrel twist rate. Get that wrong and the project will fail regardless of any thing else.
 
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So after hearing y'all out, i,ve decided to stick with m7 16" savage. Im going to TRY and find some SK and test a bunch of other standard/sub-sonic loads. Really need to chance my stock tho... but im still looking in to ammo.
 
Maple57 said:
Hmmm, WILDLY???

Not at all. It's the foundation of all to follow.

In the context of this thread we are talking about low velocity ammo and advice posted has not taken into account that the velocity has implications on accuracy with standard barrel twist rates.

You can take an Anschutz that produces 1/2 groups at 100 yards with Eley Tenex and then try 60 Grain sub sonics and be lucky to hit the paper.

That is not just what the rifle does or does not like... that is basic physics.

Since the 60 grain bullet is extra long it needs to spin faster to establish gyroscopic stability.

Since it is also moving slower, it also needs to spin faster yet.

Its a perfect example of the need to balance all of the above and its the basis of developing accuracy.


Before you begin any accuracy discussion you need to start with the bullet and expected velocity parameters to determine the barrel twist rate. Get that wrong and the project will fail regardless of any thing else.
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This makes it sound like there is a barrel with a twist that will shoot the Aguila 60 grain round as accurately as an Anschutz with Tenex -- or even near in accuracy. That isn't going to happen regardless of the twist rate. It is absolutely necessary to start with a round that is capable of good accuracy, and the 60 grain Aguila is not a candidate (nor is other Aguila .22LR ammo).

It's worth remembering that the apparent availability of .22LR barrels with non-standard twists doesn't mean that any time soon ammo manufacturers will be producing ammo with a wide variety of bullet weights and bullet lengths. For the foreseeable future such bullets will remain a characteristic of centerfire ammo, not .22LR ammo. Standard velocity 40 grain lead round nose match ammo through a 1:16 barrel will be the ammo to beat for a long time.
 
I do not expect rimfire ammo to be built specific for LR shooting anytime soon. Just make the best of what we have now and hope, consumption will increase and they will take notice.

I will do some testing at 50yds/m in Aug just to see how it shoots. I started at 100yds (sub 1"), then moved out further as that is where my interest lies. The specs I am playing with have shown a lot of improvement and will continue to experiment with my next barrel to see if I can improve things even more.

As you know, with rimfire, there are several aspects you can play with and each has a marked affect on end result.

I am offering barrels with my current spec... and if the experiments show even more improvements, then there will be another option.

Jerry
 
Maple57 said:
Accuracy is a product of the correct balance between barrel twist rate, bullet length and muzzle velocity.
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Maple57 said:
Hmmm, WILDLY???
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Yes, wildly...

Volumes have been written on the factors that affect accuracy and you sum it up in a three facet statement, there is so much more to it that there was really no point in rebuttal... again... "wildly."
 
grauhanen said:
This makes it sound like there is a barrel with a twist that will shoot the Aguila 60 grain round as accurately as an Anschutz with Tenex -- or even near in accuracy. That isn't going to happen regardless of the twist rate. It is absolutely necessary to start with a round that is capable of good accuracy, and the 60 grain Aguila is not a candidate (nor is other Aguila .22LR ammo).
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That's not actually what I'm saying... But I agree with your point otherwise.

I'm saying that the best accuracy with a 60 grain subsonic round will not be achieved with a barrel configuration that is designed for Eley Tenex.

Best with one would not likely equal the other... just best for what it is.

Not to change the subject but... The same is to say that it would not be fair to expect a 1000 yard F-Class rifle to shoot as well as a tricked out 6BR or 6PPC at 100 yards.

I would also say that the reverse is also true... that a slow twist 6BR would not be competitive at 1000 yards against a 6.5-06 Ackley Improved running 142 grain Cartarucios.

I've never heard of an F Class rifle that would shoot "in the zeros" at 100... but we could check with Gord Ogg to find out. If he hasn't done it nobody has.

In all cases accuracy is relative and is achieved through finding the correct balance.

I'll bet that somewhere along the line, some guy tried all this stuff 132 years ago when the 22 LR was first invented. It was invented in 1887 if you can believe that, according to Google. I'm sure it's all been tried somewhere along the line.
 
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hoytcanon said:
Yes, wildly...

Volumes have been written on the factors that affect accuracy and you sum it up in a three facet statement, there is so much more to it that there was really no point in rebuttal... again... "wildly."
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Unsurprisingly useless and vague rebuttal... and for the second time.

You cannot build a house without first building a foundation... the barrel twist rate is that foundation.

Please elaborate on how YOU would suggest that you can get an in-appropriate barrel twist rate to shoot accurately with low velocity 60 grain bullets given the "volumes" of other factors that you are suggesting that would be "WILDLY" more important.

I'm breathless with anticipation.
 
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Maple57 said:
I'll bet that somewhere along the line, some guy tried all this stuff 132 years ago when the 22 LR was first invented. It was invented in 1887 if you can believe that, according to Google. I'm sure it's all been tried somewhere along the line.
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It's worth remembering that 132 years ago, when the .22 round first developed it was a black powder cartridge. It was not noteworthy for great accuracy until rifle makers took the round seriously and began to make rifles to match the best ammo that could be produced -- and that only once smokeless propellant became the usual "powder". Winchester was notable for this because it produced both rifles, especially the Model 52, and the ammo to match it. Accuracy and .22 rimfire took off after that happy marriage inspired other ammo makers and other rifle manufacturers to take up the challenge.

My main point above was that it is important to keep in mind that there is not a smorgasbord of barrels with different twists out there, ripe for the choosing. Unless someone is willing to special order a custom barrel with an unusual twist, shooters will be using rifles with a twist of about 1:16. Discussions of different twist rates and different bullet weights and lengths remain more theoretical and esoteric rather than practical. In that sense there is little point to compare the .22LR round with centerfire rounds for which there is both a wide variety of bullet dimensions and powders available to reloaders. The .22LR round and accuracy is most usefully discussed with standard velocity match ammo in mind together with 1:16 barrels.
 
Have to look at why the 60 gr is even made, and its not for target shooting as much as it is for small game hunting
great pest control round, Green Mountain made a fast twist barrel for the 10/22
 
boxhitch said:
Have to look at why the 60 gr is even made, and its not for target shooting as much as it is for small game hunting
great pest control round, Green Mountain made a fast twist barrel for the 10/22
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There are still quite a few 1:9 barrel options.
 
OP - I have a savage TR-SRR with only 50 rounds through. I'm in Ottawa if you want to swap barrels or bb+action. I've wanted a FV-SR, but can't justify having that *and* a TR-SRR
 
Maybe I should be thinking on just changing the barrel then? Is there any companys that make barrels for the Mark II action?


gcdavidson said:
OP - I have a savage TR-SRR with only 50 rounds through. I'm in Ottawa if you want to swap barrels or bb+action. I've wanted a FV-SR, but can't justify having that *and* a TR-SRR
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Tempting, im not familiar with it but when I googled it i got a decked out 64. Im not in to semi-autos, im a hard bolt guy. Only semi I have are my M14 and my Stag-10. I appreciate the offer tho! If it was a BRJ or a BV or a TRR-SR id fking jump on it xD
 
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N0M4D said:
Maybe I should be thinking on just changing the barrel then? Is there any companys that make barrels for the Mark II action?



Tempting, but im not in to semi-autos, im a hard bolt guy. Only semi I have are my M14 and my Stag-10. I appreciate the offer tho! If it was a BRJ or a BV or a TRR-SR id fking jump on it xD
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Yes, give me a shout. Thanks

Jerry
 
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