in spite of all the myth and legend, DID get to the Republic of Ireland after all.....
Right now there is some talk on the shooting section of boards.ie about the fact that the Irish government of the day sold those rifles that they had received back to theBrits for £10 each - a deplorable situation, but one that DID actually take place. There are a good few knocking around, still in the original wrapping...
Anyhow, here is the riposte from from somebody who was in the thick of the discussion a few years back...after I had noted that none made it to Ireland [I was wrong, BTW]
I have been researching Irish rifles for some time and have put down some of my and others research on this forum in the past. I hate to be the party pooper but much of what folks have been publishing in this threat is simply wrong. The Irish did buy 50,000 Lee Enfields and they did come from Fazerkerly. Every body keeps repeating the mistake that Skip Stratton made in this 1995 book on the No 4 and No 5 rifles that the rifles were not delivered. That information is 17 years out of date. So to clarify things let me present the evidence that exists to date on these rifles:
1) The Irish did in fact receive 50,000 No 4 MK II Fazerkely rifles dated between 1953 and 1955. I happen to have a copy of the year 2000 letter from the Irish Ministry of Defense in which they confirm this. I did not get it, Graham Priest did and I suggest those that want verification go buy a copy of his book, “The Sprit of the Pike”. It is a bit expensive, but a superb book and he discusses the Irish contract in it, along with the serial ranges that the Irish received. It turns out they did not accept the full shipment in the assigned serial number range, only 31,553 rifles from the assigned lot were received. The remainder came from other blocks, which are documented in Grahams Priest book. If you care to know, go buy the book and support real research.
2) We have the records of the Irish surplus sales and retained stock up to February 2004. The total of the surplus sales between 1991 and 1997 totals 49,889 rifles. The total rifles still in storage were 840 No 4 MK II as of the year 2000. Now included in these sales records was the sale of .22 caliber conversions of No 1 MK III rifles, the total of which is either 889 or 989 rifles, all sold in 1991. If you do the math, you will find that there are only 160~260 rifles unaccounted for.
3) The evidence collected to date indicates that 140~245 rifles which were DP rifles in Irish service were scraped around the time of the sale. That these rifles existed is proved by a picture I was sent of a white banded DP Irish rifle in the armory. These rifles were not sold as they were considered unsafe and were dumped in the Irish Sea. The number of purchased rifles, sold rifles and demillled for rifles are off by less then 15 rifles in 50,000.
In any case the documentation is very clear in all regards to the quantity purchased and the quantity sold. Al the sources for this data are primary sources, either the ministry of defense, the Irish archives or soldiers present at the sea dumping.
It seems that Skip Stratton got the idea that not all the rifles went to Ireland as some of the rifles were known to be in the UK around the time some of the surplus sales occurred. Now this is where my current research is not complete, but it would seem that at least one of the shipments, not the 1991 and not the 1996/97, most likely the 1994 surplus lot went first to the UK prior to shipment to other countries. In this second shipment, Century arms sold batches to Australian dealers, German dealers and possibly others. These rifles did not go directly from Ireland to these vendors but were first sent to the UK. I do not have the complete history on this but have been slowly putting together from recollections of individuals who worked in the surplus trade. As I have been dealing with 15 year old recollections, the details are not as definitive as the records on receives from the Irish army regarding their weapon sales.
There is additional information I have come across on the Irish use of these rifles, such as trails order of ~500 rifles used in the Irish trials in 1952/53, along with the M45 Karl Gustav sub-machineguns, the Sniper rifles ordered and still on the books as of February 2004. But none of that is relevant to this conversation. What is relevant is it is time to stop repeating obsolete information on this topic and the “Irish did not buy 50,000 rifles” mantra is wrong."
does that clear it up?
I hope so. Now I really must go looking for one for myself...
Right now there is some talk on the shooting section of boards.ie about the fact that the Irish government of the day sold those rifles that they had received back to theBrits for £10 each - a deplorable situation, but one that DID actually take place. There are a good few knocking around, still in the original wrapping...
Anyhow, here is the riposte from from somebody who was in the thick of the discussion a few years back...after I had noted that none made it to Ireland [I was wrong, BTW]
I have been researching Irish rifles for some time and have put down some of my and others research on this forum in the past. I hate to be the party pooper but much of what folks have been publishing in this threat is simply wrong. The Irish did buy 50,000 Lee Enfields and they did come from Fazerkerly. Every body keeps repeating the mistake that Skip Stratton made in this 1995 book on the No 4 and No 5 rifles that the rifles were not delivered. That information is 17 years out of date. So to clarify things let me present the evidence that exists to date on these rifles:
1) The Irish did in fact receive 50,000 No 4 MK II Fazerkely rifles dated between 1953 and 1955. I happen to have a copy of the year 2000 letter from the Irish Ministry of Defense in which they confirm this. I did not get it, Graham Priest did and I suggest those that want verification go buy a copy of his book, “The Sprit of the Pike”. It is a bit expensive, but a superb book and he discusses the Irish contract in it, along with the serial ranges that the Irish received. It turns out they did not accept the full shipment in the assigned serial number range, only 31,553 rifles from the assigned lot were received. The remainder came from other blocks, which are documented in Grahams Priest book. If you care to know, go buy the book and support real research.
2) We have the records of the Irish surplus sales and retained stock up to February 2004. The total of the surplus sales between 1991 and 1997 totals 49,889 rifles. The total rifles still in storage were 840 No 4 MK II as of the year 2000. Now included in these sales records was the sale of .22 caliber conversions of No 1 MK III rifles, the total of which is either 889 or 989 rifles, all sold in 1991. If you do the math, you will find that there are only 160~260 rifles unaccounted for.
3) The evidence collected to date indicates that 140~245 rifles which were DP rifles in Irish service were scraped around the time of the sale. That these rifles existed is proved by a picture I was sent of a white banded DP Irish rifle in the armory. These rifles were not sold as they were considered unsafe and were dumped in the Irish Sea. The number of purchased rifles, sold rifles and demillled for rifles are off by less then 15 rifles in 50,000.
In any case the documentation is very clear in all regards to the quantity purchased and the quantity sold. Al the sources for this data are primary sources, either the ministry of defense, the Irish archives or soldiers present at the sea dumping.
It seems that Skip Stratton got the idea that not all the rifles went to Ireland as some of the rifles were known to be in the UK around the time some of the surplus sales occurred. Now this is where my current research is not complete, but it would seem that at least one of the shipments, not the 1991 and not the 1996/97, most likely the 1994 surplus lot went first to the UK prior to shipment to other countries. In this second shipment, Century arms sold batches to Australian dealers, German dealers and possibly others. These rifles did not go directly from Ireland to these vendors but were first sent to the UK. I do not have the complete history on this but have been slowly putting together from recollections of individuals who worked in the surplus trade. As I have been dealing with 15 year old recollections, the details are not as definitive as the records on receives from the Irish army regarding their weapon sales.
There is additional information I have come across on the Irish use of these rifles, such as trails order of ~500 rifles used in the Irish trials in 1952/53, along with the M45 Karl Gustav sub-machineguns, the Sniper rifles ordered and still on the books as of February 2004. But none of that is relevant to this conversation. What is relevant is it is time to stop repeating obsolete information on this topic and the “Irish did not buy 50,000 rifles” mantra is wrong."
does that clear it up?
I hope so. Now I really must go looking for one for myself...
