Province proposing changes to moose hunt

Suther said:
Alternatively, there is no max, and point creep means unless you get in at the get-go, you can kiss your chances of ever drawing goodbye.

5 years from now, new hunters are going to be absolutely screwed. Guess I should scratch Ontario off the list of places to look for a new job when the time comes...
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We’re talking about a very broken system, and making some improvements. If nothing changed, and you moved to Ontario in a few years, you’d still be SOL.

The points system works well in the western US, and is a way to ensure that those who “give a damn” the most, have the highest odds of being drawn. Moose hunting in Ontario as we’ve traditionally known it, is already dead. I’ve seen GGSs for my WMU go from 6 to 8 to 12 to 16 to none in a matter of 6 years. The old way isn’t working, and it should have been addressed a decade ago. Now we’re paying the price.
 
Some WMU might require 15 points, while others only a few, depending on the number of tags in that area and the number of hunters applying. For those that want to hunt southern WMU, you will be waiting a long time for tags...

Pretty much will be the the death of moose camps/groups, as there will be a long lag between now and having sufficient points...
 
blargon said:
Some WMU might require 15 points, while others only a few, depending on the number of tags in that area and the number of hunters applying. For those that want to hunt southern WMU, you will be waiting a long time for tags...

Pretty much will be the the death of moose camps/groups, as there will be a long lag between now and having sufficient points...
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1. I don’t think that’s how it’s going to work... or at least, that’s not how traditional points systems work in the US. It’s still a draw. It’s just that if I have 15 points, I essentially have 15 ballots in the draw, whereas a newby would only have one ballot. The newby can still be drawn, but he has 1/15th the odds that I do. (Assuming it was nothing but newbies and me in the draw, but in reality there would be folks with points/ballots all across the spectrum). In some states, where they’re really looking to recognize long time committed hunters, they actually square your points. So first year 1 point, 2nd-4, 3rd-9, 4th-16, 5th-25, 6th-36 and so on. So that if I’m in it for an extra year or two vs my neighbor, my chances are significantly higher than them, instead of only a marginal difference.


2. The way I read it above, hunter’s existing draw history will factor into the initial allotment of points. So a newby may get one, but a veteran may get several. But I may be misinterpreting.
 
kodiakjack said:
1. I don’t think that’s how it’s going to work... or at least, that’s not how traditional points systems work in the US. It’s still a draw. It’s just that if I have 15 points, I essentially have 15 ballots in the draw, whereas a newby would only have one ballot. The newby can still be drawn, but he has 1/15th the odds that I do. (Assuming it was nothing but newbies and me in the draw, but in reality there would be folks with points/ballots all across the spectrum). In some states, where they’re really looking to recognize long time committed hunters, they actually square your points. So first year 1 point, 2nd-4, 3rd-9, 4th-16, 5th-25, 6th-36 and so on. So that if I’m in it for an extra year or two vs my neighbor, my chances are significantly higher than them, instead of only a marginal difference.


2. The way I read it above, hunter’s existing draw history will factor into the initial allotment of points. So a newby may get one, but a veteran may get several. But I may be misinterpreting.
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Nope. He with the most points gets the tags. Some states are that way, some still do draws (or at least that's my understanding, I haven't studied the US systems extensively but I've heard a fair bit about them from the Meat eater podcast and Hunt Talk Radio with Randy Newberg.)

The hunters with the most points would receive the available tags for each WMU, season and moose type. When there are more hunters tied with a given number of points than tags available, a defined process will be used to allocate from amongst those hunters (e.g. a random draw)
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Suther said:
Nope. He with the most points gets the tags. Some states are that way, some still do draws (or at least that's my understanding, I haven't studied the US systems extensively but I've heard a fair bit about them from the Meat eater podcast and Hunt Talk Radio with Randy Newberg.)
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Based on how it's written in the article the preference point tags will be separate from the general draw tags. Overall, the article is extremely unclear on what the overall intent is.
 
rkm456 said:
Based on how it's written in the article the preference point tags will be separate from the general draw tags. Overall, the article is extremely unclear on what the overall intent is.
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This is how I interpret it. I don't think there is a general draw tag. All tags will be points based. Each WMU would have a set number of tags (like now), and the number of points required to draw a tag will depend on the number of tags in that wmu, and the number of people applying. If a WMU requires 10 points, then people with 10 or more points would have a chance to draw a tag there, but not guaranteed if there are more qualified applicants than tags available...The more remote wmu's would require less points...

Also, there is bull tags, cow/calf tags, and calf tags, depending on area. The tag can only be applied to the animal stated, and if party hunting, no more than 10 hunters per tag, with the max distance from the tag being 3km instead of the current 5km.

The starting number of points goes back to the last time you were in pool 2. So in my case, I will only start with 2 points, because I had a tag in 2018.
 
billbmcleod said:
If I was 25 years old then this point system may be OK but at 71 I suspect this may be my last Hunt if we changed the system. As it is our party has had to keep growing as the guaranteed group size goes through the roof.
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Remember the good ol' days in the early '70's when bulls only tags where sold to one and all?
 
blargon said:
This is how I interpret it. I don't think there is a general draw tag. All tags will be points based. Each WMU would have a set number of tags (like now), and the number of points required to draw a tag will depend on the number of tags in that wmu, and the number of people applying. If a WMU requires 10 points, then people with 10 or more points would have a chance to draw a tag there, but not guaranteed if there are more qualified applicants than tags available...The more remote wmu's would require less points...

Also, there is bull tags, cow/calf tags, and calf tags, depending on area. The tag can only be applied to the animal stated, and if party hunting, no more than 10 hunters per tag, with the max distance from the tag being 3km instead of the current 5km.

The starting number of points goes back to the last time you were in pool 2. So in my case, I will only start with 2 points, because I had a tag in 2018.
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If there's no general draw there's no way to accumulate points. The way it's used in the states I've read about they have 2 different tags, general and points. If there were no normal lottery tags no one under the age of 80 would ever be hunting.
 
Suther said:
Nope. He with the most points gets the tags. Some states are that way, some still do draws (or at least that's my understanding, I haven't studied the US systems extensively but I've heard a fair bit about them from the Meat eater podcast and Hunt Talk Radio with Randy Newberg.)
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I don’t like it. I’m meeting with the MNRF today and I’ll tell them as much.


It’s already hard enough to get young blood into hunting. And now, if they want to hunt moose, they’ll be told they’ll need to keep applying for several years without even a statistical chance of getting a tag? That’s not going to help hunter recruitment. They should just go with a simple points = ballots approach. Less complicated, and everyone has SOME chance.
 
rkm456 said:
If there's no general draw there's no way to accumulate points. The way it's used in the states I've read about they have 2 different tags, general and points. If there were no normal lottery tags no one under the age of 80 would ever be hunting.
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And that's the issue in some states. The "good" tags are only available to the max point holders, and each year that pool goes up by 1 point. Unless you got in when they introduced the system (most of the states using points systems introduced them in the 90s it seems) you'll basically never get a shot at the best tags/units. Furthermore, some states limit the number of tags that non residents can get to 10%, while giving 20% of tags to the max point pool. In those states if you're not in the max point pool as a non resident you will NEVER draw certain units because the non res allotment is taken by max point holders every year.
 
Suther said:
And that's the issue in some states. The "good" tags are only available to the max point holders, and each year that pool goes up by 1 point. Unless you got in when they introduced the system (most of the states using points systems introduced them in the 90s it seems) you'll basically never get a shot at the best tags/units. Furthermore, some states limit the number of tags that non residents can get to 10%, while giving 20% of tags to the max point pool. In those states if you're not in the max point pool as a non resident you will NEVER draw certain units because the non res allotment is taken by max point holders every year.
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I'm not quite sure you understand how wildlife management works...
 
that proposal sounds exactly like how Alberta doe its draws.

Individuals apply and priority is based on their points, you get one point each year you are unsuccessful in getting drawn and you can build points by applying for the draw but requesting priority only.

and recently the province started allowing partner tags.
 
woodchopper said:
that proposal sounds exactly like how Alberta doe its draws.

Individuals apply and priority is based on their points, you get one point each year you are unsuccessful in getting drawn and you can build points by applying for the draw but requesting priority only.

and recently the province started allowing partner tags.
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This question can apply to both Alberta and Ontario. Do you need to buy a license before you can apply for the draw, or do you just need to pay the draw fee?
 
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