Brass or Paper shotshells

Vaterslote

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Looking for some information. I have a new to me Gibbs & Pitt 10 gauge Blackpowder and was wondering about using brass or paper hulls. I have both as well as a roll crimper. Are these hulls interchangeable in an old shotgun? Could a shotgun be made for one or the other and if so how do you tell?

Looking for some help before I do something horribly wrong.
 
The shell material itself does not matter to the shotgun, the contents do. Brass and paper are better for black powder as black really chews on plastic with its burning sulfur.
 
The case dia. shouldn't be an issue with either brass or modern plastic...the issue is with the length of chamber your gun has. Shorter hulls than the chamber length can usually be uses safely but do not use anything longer, even with BP , pressures may exceed the limits of your gun.

There usually is internet published history for most gun manuf. now that may give you the chamber length for the year of manuf. of it. If a search doesn't help out a trip to a gunsmith to have a chamber cast done on the gun is appropriate.
 
Thank ye. Old gun staying away from plastic. I have both brass and paper hulls. I did not cast chamber yet. 2 7/8 is tight with brass but not paper. Will close but not ready to load and fire since it is tight.if I trimmed 0.130 off the brass it would slid in easy...
 
I've been down this road with a number of English guns, very rewarding but 10 gauge poses special problems.
As mentioned, first you need to establish chamber length, the Brits made 10's in lengths from 2" up to 3 1/2" and more. The most common, almost standard length is 2 5/8" but dedicated wildfowling guns frequently had longer chambers, sometimes much longer.
2 7/8" which is more common in American guns will be encountered but may have been lengthened to this dimension ( with associated risks). Chamber length is measured with a simple chamber length gauge ( like a properly sized dowel ) which can be purchased but is frequently home made out of steel, brass, aluminum or hardwood on a lathe. It can also be measured with some shotgun bore diameter gauges if you can find someone who has one.
Suitable black powder hulls are hard come by in ten gauge but you seem to have that issue solved. The most commonly available paper cases are old obsolete Canuck and Maxum 2 7/8" ammunition from the 1960's or older, these can still sometimes be found at gun shows and they will be of very erratic condition. Many will be swollen or have cracked brass and should be rejected. The sound cartridges will need to be fired in a strong modern gun to provide you with the empty hulls to reload, don't fire them in your old black powder gun. Once empty they may need to be trimmed to match your chamber length, if your chamber is longer than your hulls they can be used with no alterations. Ten gauge brass cases are not commonly available at reasonable prices, and the ones I've found are usually 2 7/8" or shorter. Trim to fit your chamber if required.
To reload you have many directions available. For traditional black powder loads you will want fibre, cork or felt wads and a rolled crimp. This is a slow process but can produce beautiful ammunition. Modern tools can be used for all stages except the crimp stages and the old traditional hand crank tools still work well with the paper hulls. The original Lee Loader table top unit works well if you can find one. In addition, because your hulls will have been originally fired in a different gun or guns they may need to be resized, check all of your empties in both of your chambers to see if they fit. If they fit no sizing is required. Any primer will work fine, but I favour the hotter ones. Ten gauge black powder charges were generally 3 1/2 to 4 1/2 drams of FFG by volume. Use an over powder nitro card ward , build up your cushion wads to the correct height, then another card wad, then your shot charge, then your overshot card wad, then close with a roll crimp. Perfect! They will reload several times but the crimp area will break down and they will get pinhole burn throughs just above the brass and must then be discarded. Paper cases are not suitable for a modern type fold crimp.
Brass must be dealt with differently. First, if previously used with black powder they must be thoroughly cleaned of all fouling and corrosion and carefully checked for integrity. Modern primers may or may not fit. Sizing if required is much more difficult. Powder charge remains the same. Wads. Here is where the problems start. Brass cases are thinner and require bigger wads to fit properly, usually 9 gauge in a 10 gauge gun. These are nearly impossible to source in Canada, must be ordered from specialty suppliers in the US. Also, a roll crimp is no longer practical or desirable, you will need to glue your overshot card wad ( 9 gauge as well) in place with any basic white glue. Then you will probably want to slightly roll the case mouth inward to eliminate the sharp case mouth. You may need to make your own tool for this.
A simpler but non traditional method is to use Remington SP10 plastic wads in the paper hulls and roll crimp. They will not seal properly over the powder in brass cases. Feel free to PM me if you like. Have fun.
 
Lots of great information Ashcroft. I will PM you.

I have all the wads etcetera from Circle Fly... Rusty Wood in Canada does handle such varmints but I was able to get everything down south. I purchased a Williams & Powell years ago but waiting for firing pins...so a new purchase to utilize the brass, wads, cards and so forth.

Long story but gun is at the gunsmith... locked in the open position.
 
In the past I’ve cut off regular plastic shot shells to length and reloaded them in BP, I pressed in and glued the overshot cards and bobs your uncle. They worked fine.
 
I've been down this road with a number of English guns, very rewarding but 10 gauge poses special problems.
As mentioned, first you need to establish chamber length, the Brits made 10's in lengths from 2" up to 3 1/2" and more. The most common, almost standard length is 2 5/8" but dedicated wildfowling guns frequently had longer chambers, sometimes much longer.
2 7/8" which is more common in American guns will be encountered but may have been lengthened to this dimension ( with associated risks). Chamber length is measured with a simple chamber length gauge ( like a properly sized dowel ) which can be purchased but is frequently home made out of steel, brass, aluminum or hardwood on a lathe. It can also be measured with some shotgun bore diameter gauges if you can find someone who has one.
Suitable black powder hulls are hard come by in ten gauge but you seem to have that issue solved. The most commonly available paper cases are old obsolete Canuck and Maxum 2 7/8" ammunition from the 1960's or older, these can still sometimes be found at gun shows and they will be of very erratic condition. Many will be swollen or have cracked brass and should be rejected. The sound cartridges will need to be fired in a strong modern gun to provide you with the empty hulls to reload, don't fire them in your old black powder gun. Once empty they may need to be trimmed to match your chamber length, if your chamber is longer than your hulls they can be used with no alterations. Ten gauge brass cases are not commonly available at reasonable prices, and the ones I've found are usually 2 7/8" or shorter. Trim to fit your chamber if required.
To reload you have many directions available. For traditional black powder loads you will want fibre, cork or felt wads and a rolled crimp. This is a slow process but can produce beautiful ammunition. Modern tools can be used for all stages except the crimp stages and the old traditional hand crank tools still work well with the paper hulls. The original Lee Loader table top unit works well if you can find one. In addition, because your hulls will have been originally fired in a different gun or guns they may need to be resized, check all of your empties in both of your chambers to see if they fit. If they fit no sizing is required. Any primer will work fine, but I favour the hotter ones. Ten gauge black powder charges were generally 3 1/2 to 4 1/2 drams of FFG by volume. Use an over powder nitro card ward , build up your cushion wads to the correct height, then another card wad, then your shot charge, then your overshot card wad, then close with a roll crimp. Perfect! They will reload several times but the crimp area will break down and they will get pinhole burn throughs just above the brass and must then be discarded. Paper cases are not suitable for a modern type fold crimp.
Brass must be dealt with differently. First, if previously used with black powder they must be thoroughly cleaned of all fouling and corrosion and carefully checked for integrity. Modern primers may or may not fit. Sizing if required is much more difficult. Powder charge remains the same. Wads. Here is where the problems start. Brass cases are thinner and require bigger wads to fit properly, usually 9 gauge in a 10 gauge gun. These are nearly impossible to source in Canada, must be ordered from specialty suppliers in the US. Also, a roll crimp is no longer practical or desirable, you will need to glue your overshot card wad ( 9 gauge as well) in place with any basic white glue. Then you will probably want to slightly roll the case mouth inward to eliminate the sharp case mouth. You may need to make your own tool for this.
A simpler but non traditional method is to use Remington SP10 plastic wads in the paper hulls and roll crimp. They will not seal properly over the powder in brass cases. Feel free to PM me if you like. Have fun.

Excellent info...especially the comments about chamber length variations. Just like loading a muzzle loading shotgun, BP shot shells should have equal VOLUMES of shot and powder so adjust the wad column to fit your load. Track of the Wolf Carrie's all sizes of wads for brass and paper cartridges.
 
Thanks for the help. I bought the brass hulls and circle fly all from Track of the Wolf...placed another order for 2 5/8 so I don’t have to cut them down for the Gibbs as the W&P takes 2 7/8. Expensive but I will own them! Save the grandkids spending their money at the prices in 30 years.
 
Relative to brass vs paper, I found that with paper 8 guage shells, I could only reload them about 3 times before the powder started penetrating through the paper. Also while hunting with a 10 guage a paper shells, they can swell up when damp and not chamber. I use plastic shells in my 12 and 20 guage and can reload them several times. They get a bit scorched but still remain sound. I shoot 2 3/4 plastic shells in a 2 5/8 chamber because the shells are thin enough that it does not tremendously increase the presssure but I would never do that with paper shells because they are quite a bit thicker than paper. I have brass shells but they are a bit of a nuisance to load because I put a bead of glue to secure the over shot card because I don't like partially crimping them

cheers mooncoon
 
Thank you! Looking at the brass. Paper proving difficult to find. I heard about some hull restorers that used to be around but they are more scarce than the hulls. Curling irons and the wife’s oven were also suggested t9 recondition the wax in the paper, the oven most likely by bachelors
 
A little bit of an update. Thanks to Mark Crudgington for taking the time to help me out. He directed me to his father’s book The British Shotgun Volume 2 for more information as well.

Turns out I have a 1st pattern Gibbs & Pitt patent built circa 1875 - 1880 , it has been adapted to 2nd pattern by Gibbs at some point. (Reading to figure out how he knew it was adapted) “It will have "Gibbs and Pitt pat'" engraved on top of the action with a number , that number tells you it's place in the 10,000 odd production cycle. Mine says 136, so it is the 136th gun built on this patent. Interestingly I found other numbers C354 which informs me this is the 354 second grade © gun made by Gibbs... and I’ll tell you a second grade gun from a first grade gunsmith is a very nice piece of work.

Further he said, “The bolt in this type of gun is " free floating " and only controlled by the lever on opening# and controlled by a spring on closing , if this has been changed you may permanently damage the gun”. Fortunately Will Stanley of a Wasaga Beach was able to weld together the broken bolt for me and reproduce a very clean copy in Mr. Crudgington’s appraisal. Thanks Willy!

The small lever to the right side is the safety catch, it blocks the fall of the tumblers (or hammers as we call them). Mr. Crudgington was also so kind as to provide a recipe for my shells. “It would have been designed to shoot a 2 5/8" case with 1 3/8 oz shot infront of 3 1/2 drams C&H No 6 black powder ( FG).

Right sporting of him, fine ol’ chap to deal with I say!

Sorry I cannot post pictures. Polished the metal last night. Super proud right now! BTW Ashcroft has been very helpful. Hopefully he will see this update. And yes...I bought all three Volumes of “The British Shotgun”
 
wont find much 10ga paper anymore unless you look really hard at gun shows plastic can be cut down but that's no fun with BP. buffalo arms and track of the wolf both have 10ga turned brass in both 2 5/8 and 2 7/8 its not sheap but should last for ever if care is taken throw them in some water after shooting to clean them I find a bottle brush works well to get the inside clean
 
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I do pretty much what Mooncoon and Ashcroft follow with thier handling of all brass hulls.
Slight variation I seal the final white overshot card with clear silicone.
And if I make anything besides one size of birdshot I use single digits or symbology drawn with black sharpie to denote the various bird or buckshot. Pre mark the shot size so it shows through the clear silicone.
Just use your own imagination here.
 
The issue I was having with my brass shell is when lubing the fibre wad the glue for the overshot card would not hold because of the lube inside the brass shell. Trying to avoid crimping without having that overshot card come loose and a pocket full of shot or the dribble before I shoot syndrome
 
Brutus, thanks for the silicone idea. USA books say use duco cement. Anyone have any idea if that is our ‘contact cement’? As noted above my issue is when I use a lubbed wad. Cleaning the lube from the inside of the brass after sending the wad down is time consuming...but effective.
 
Duco is a nitrocellulose cement that also was used as waterproofing lacquer on paper shotshell hulls. It is a Devcon product now.
 
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