Post was a work in progress. Please look it over. I actually have addressed this. 175 SMK shoots better out to distance. Do you disagree? Whether it's a wall or simply ballistics and carrying velocity along with bucking wind. There is no point in loading 168 when the 175 is very available. Yes I do both and am trying to change over to just the one.
PGW Coyote feedback
- Thread starter Falcon77
- Start date
Post was a work in progress. Please look it over. I actually have addressed this. 175 SMK shoots better out to distance. Do you disagree? Whether it's a wall or simply ballistics and carrying velocity along with bucking wind. There is no point in loading 168 when the 175 is very available. Yes I do both and am trying to change over to just the one.
I agree. Heavier, higher BC bullets generally have the ballistic advantage at distance. Faster twists are for heavier, longer bullets. If a 168 shoots great out of a 1:10, so will a 175.
My 1:10 shoots 175's just fine.
I'm not telling you to load 168's. I'm saying that 1:10 is more then fine for the 175's, others are as well (including the ones that build the PGW rifles).
If you want the PGW Coyote, buy it - it's a great gun. I wouldn't let the 1:10 twist hold you back. If you want a very specific twist rate (or other features) then get a custom rifle built, that's what they're for.
A gunsmith can spin you up a barrel chambered to specifically shoot the exact ammunition you want to. If you are so picky about what ammo you want to shoot, then build a gun around the ammo. This is exactly why some people get custom rifles built.
Let's set the books straight here. With 1:11.25 twist I currently own: 1) Cadex Guardian CX-30 20" 308, 2) Desert Tech SRS A1 covert with custom 22" 308 1:11.25 twist barrel, 3) 2 AR10T (Canadian military spotters rifles) with 24" !:11.25 twist barrel, 4) 1 AR10 Super SASS with 20" 1:11.25 twist barrel, 5) 1 LMT MWS with 20" 1:11.25 twist Mike Rock SS barrel, 6) KAC SR25 with 20" 1:11.25 twist barrel, 7) 3 Remington 5R milspecs (2 with 24" and one with 20").
Now 1:11 twist as is now common with European military style rifles. 1) SSG 3000 , 2) Tikka Tac A1, 3) H&K MR308A3 -G28.
Yes I own all of those rifles. After owning/shooting 1:12 and 1:10 twist barrels. I prefer this twist rate for all the reasons I've already listed. It's not a matter of "need" but of prefer.
Shouldn't need to get a custom for a military grade precision rifle. They usually come standard with this. Which has been my point the entire time!!! It's not a matter of need. It's a matter or reducing the variables. I have a narrow ammunition range I am aiming for. Tailoring the barrel and ammunition to work together makes complete sense.
That being said, I will ask PGW about this. If possible I will definitely be going with a 1:11.25 twist given the choice. However I'm glad to hear that others have had good experiences with their 1:10 twist barrels. As that hasn't always been my experience, even with barrels that were supposed to be decent quality. Usually it meant reloading to the barrel or trying out a ton of different match ammo, most of which isn't as readily available over here as the Federal Gold.
Just because it's 1:11.25 doesn't mean it's going to shoot 175 FGMM good. Reamer/chamber specs will have a large part to play in it, more so then the twist. If you wanted to guarantee it to shoot FGMM ammo good, your best bet is to get it chambered to that specific ammo (much like what TacOps does to guarantee 1/4 MOA precision with FGMM factory ammo), which is why I recommended a custom build, you can build your gun around the specific ammo you want to shoot, which you seem very set about.
Best of luck in your 1:11.25 adventure.
Best of luck in your 1:11.25 adventure.
Yes, I've heard that.
We will see if I can get it with the twist rate I want. Hopefully. If not, well I will still end up buying one. Many on here have assured me that the rifle shoots 175 SMK very well. It might not be specifically optimized for that, but if it shoots it shoots.
The other option is to just get it in 6.5 CM. I prefer not adding another calibre. Plus I don't like the barrel life vs the 308. But.. it seems to be the way things are going. This takes care of any concerns.
Last edited:
My 6.5creed coyote has close to 4000 rounds of prs style shooting and is still holding 1/2moa easily, the throat is hurting but the rifle still shoots amazing, may put a new barrel on for next year but going to try to shoot it out this winter, if the barrel chambering was not perfect you would not get this life span on the barrel.
Chamber specs and the quality of the chamber job make a huge difference. It's why I have my gunsmiths use reamers specifically designed for the ammo I intend to shoot, or in the case of my 6BRA my own reamer.
I have very good success shooting the ammo that my rifle was designed to shoot, as a result. From factory loaded rounds (6.5 creedmoor 140 ELD's before I reloaded, and .308 FGMM) to specific bullets for the rounds I reload for (140 Berger's for my 6.5 creedmoor, 105 Berger's for my 6BRA, 230 Berger's .300NM).
It can be a crap shoot if you use a generic chamber/don't specifically have a chamber made for the ammo you want to shoot.
4,000 rounds and still holding 1/2 MOA for 6.5 Creedmoor is pretty awesome, I think most anyone would be happy with that. Are you shooting factory ammo or reloads through your coyote?
If I was Epoxy, I would be talking to PGW about chamber specs and ensuring the proper reamer is used to ensure its optimized for use with factory FGMM 175 (or whatever he wants to shoot). I'm sure they can accommodate that no problem.
Last edited:
I was running my premier 5-25 i bought off you on it just swapped it off as it’s my best scope, placed 15 at the Rob Furlong match with over 3000 on it, but i’m running 147gr eldm with 41.3gr h4350 2760fps have pushed it harder but it’s not worth it if you don’t want problems and the heat can cause problems if loaded to hot.
I personally don't follow the pen , pencil , notes , numbers ,
I just do shooting ,
Barrel twist topic is almost 50 years on barrel manufacturer's mind ,
In reality we have so many factors that twist rate it doesn't count,
You can't calculate physics on rifle shooting too many things effect on accuracy ,
If you want to convince yourself TO BUY or NOT TO BUY you are always a winner, you will create your own reasons at least for yourself to believe in.
Me too. However someone did the pen/paper etc for you even if you don't know it. In my case I like to draft off the deepest pockets in the planet. The US military. The entire point is to eliminate those very factors. Hence why I want the barrel to match the 168-175 with 175 being my priority. I just got rid of many of those very things that affect accuracy.
Here's an inexpensive Remington 5R, completely stock with 168 Federal gold. 3 shots sight in and then these are the following two groups I shot out of that rifle. Two 5 round groups shot two weeks apart. These weren't cherry picked. Those were the first two groups out of that rifle. Shoots the same only better against wind with my 175 SMK M118LR based rounds. Again, I let someone else take care of eliminating the variables. I don't like messing around with tons of reloads. I find it time consuming, expensive and not a lot of fun. I also like to just go and shoot. That actually has been the entire point of my posts.
Stock 5R milspec from 2007 manufacture. 5 rounds 100 yards.
For the 308 PGW owners. Is that what I should expect from the PGW Coyote 308 with 168 or 175 Federal Gold and 5 rounds at 100? I'm having a heck of a time finding groups for this gun. A number in .260 and some in 6.5 CM but 308 I'm not seeing them posted. Are those groups off the shelf match ammo or tweaked reloads? Yes I can tweak reloads to the barrel but would like to avoid that and go either off the shelf match ammo or my goto reload for my precision 308 rifles.
I'm seriously considering just giving the 6.5 CM a try for the Coyote. Huge fan of 308 and the 6.5 doesn't offer me anything as I'm not a long range shooter. But still out of the box as it's fairly new, with very few variables it's likely to be perfect right from the get go.
Last edited:
With a about 2k rounds through her she still amazes me on how well she can shoot ( when I do my part ).
Ran PP2000MR with excellent results. Until I ran out .
Now load developing with Varget and 185 Juggernauts.
Not pushing the loads hard at all. Wanting good accuracy with out trashing the brass.
I have 500 rounds of 160Gr Flatlines I want to try and see how they work out. Expensive yes but who cares when you having fun.
After this barrel is shot out will get her redone in a 6.5 or 260 for something different
Ran PP2000MR with excellent results. Until I ran out .
Now load developing with Varget and 185 Juggernauts.
Not pushing the loads hard at all. Wanting good accuracy with out trashing the brass.
I have 500 rounds of 160Gr Flatlines I want to try and see how they work out. Expensive yes but who cares when you having fun.
After this barrel is shot out will get her redone in a 6.5 or 260 for something different
Do you have any links to any studies conducted by the US mil and twist rates? Do you know why they picked the 1:11.25? Did they do a detailed study and analysis between 1:10 and 1:11.25 twist rates?
Just because the US military uses it, doesn't mean it's the best. They are very slow to change, and rarely do they ever pick the "best" of anything during their equipment procurement - there's a lot more that goes into equipment procurement for .gov then just pure performance, it's far from a pure process. Heck, if they picked the best, they wouldn't be using a rem700 as the platform for a lot of their sniper rifles.
I personally can't say why they use 1:11.25 twist. May be a hold over from the old days, maybe they did do extensive testing and found it was the best. But if you have information on why, I would be interested in seeing it. Don't just assume they are using it because it performs the best. They haven't always got twist rates right - they are currently struggling with their .300NM's due to picking the incorrect twist rates.
I know based on your own personal experience that you think 1:11.25 twist rates are the best for precision with the .308, but there's lot's of things that go into making an accurate .308, and twist rate is a pretty minimal factor in that as long as you are stabilizing the bullet. Lot's of evidence out there to suggest the 1:10 twists shoot just great.
You need to talk with PGW, I'm sure they will help you out. I feel like you are making a lot of assumptions about twist rates which aren't necessarily correct.
Just because the US military uses it, doesn't mean it's the best. They are very slow to change, and rarely do they ever pick the "best" of anything during their equipment procurement - there's a lot more that goes into equipment procurement for .gov then just pure performance, it's far from a pure process. Heck, if they picked the best, they wouldn't be using a rem700 as the platform for a lot of their sniper rifles.
I personally can't say why they use 1:11.25 twist. May be a hold over from the old days, maybe they did do extensive testing and found it was the best. But if you have information on why, I would be interested in seeing it. Don't just assume they are using it because it performs the best. They haven't always got twist rates right - they are currently struggling with their .300NM's due to picking the incorrect twist rates.
I know based on your own personal experience that you think 1:11.25 twist rates are the best for precision with the .308, but there's lot's of things that go into making an accurate .308, and twist rate is a pretty minimal factor in that as long as you are stabilizing the bullet. Lot's of evidence out there to suggest the 1:10 twists shoot just great.
You need to talk with PGW, I'm sure they will help you out. I feel like you are making a lot of assumptions about twist rates which aren't necessarily correct.
Bryan Litz has done extensive studies on ballistics. He recommends a stability factor of 1.5 or better, in order to make effective use of the BC of the bullet (faster twist = better BC = better extended range performance). Besides a BC boost with a faster twist rate, there is no real performance difference from different twist rates, as long as you are effectively stabilizing the bullet. Meaning that you won't see any meaningful effect on target from changing twist rates.
Basically, as long as you are not pushing the twist so fast that you are deforming jackets or cores, a faster twist rate only helps you and doesn't hurt in performance, per the ballistic studies of Bryan Litz. A 1:10 twist rate is fine for the 175 SMK, you are below the threshold of jacket and core deformation with that twist rate, and you may even see a BC boost (though probably very marginal) over its 1:11.25 counterpart.
Basically, as long as you are not pushing the twist so fast that you are deforming jackets or cores, a faster twist rate only helps you and doesn't hurt in performance, per the ballistic studies of Bryan Litz. A 1:10 twist rate is fine for the 175 SMK, you are below the threshold of jacket and core deformation with that twist rate, and you may even see a BC boost (though probably very marginal) over its 1:11.25 counterpart.
Even if the military did do a study on this, you would need to know the actual bullet(s) used for that testing and what velocity range they ran them in.
Chances are the decision was based on ammo they have readily in the supply chain and not necessarily what you would want to use as a CIVI consumer.
You're going about it like a civilian competition shooter where you are matching the ammo to the barrel/gun. It's the opposite with these military precision rifles. The round was developed and the rifles were adjusted/tweaked around that ammunition since there is only one type it has to shoot.
There is one Nato M118LR ammunition that the rifles have to shoot reliably and accurately and that the specifications for the 20-24" barrel range all had the 1:11.25 twist rate. Or that the European rifles seem to favour the 1:11 twist rate. The only rifles usually favouring the 1:10 twist are for commercial sales or more recently very short barreled versions. Google M852, M118, M118LR,.
Let's take a look at some noteworthy examples. Some of which for non military use are sold in 1:10 twist rate. The Armalite AR10 SASS for example. In military M110 trails it has the 1:11.25 twist. For commercial sales it uses the 1:10. Same with the target version vs the Canadian military selected version. Keep in mind 20-24" barrel lengths. They picked the twist rate for the length of barrel requested in the competition that works best for the M118LR ammunition. They didn't adjust the ammunition to match the barrel as competition shooters usually do.
Military contract versions with 1:11.25 or 1:11 twist rates
1) M24 / M2010 . MSR (2013+ multi calibre system) 1:11.25
2) SR25 M110 1:11.25
3) Armalite AR10t (Canadian spotters scopes) 1:11.25
4) HK G28 Has 1:11 twist rate
5) LMT MWS Ie L129A1 and the New Zealand version Both have SS 1:11.25 twist
6) TRG 22 1:11
7) SSG 3000 (Switched from 1:12 to 1:11 and has military use)
8) Blaser LRS 2 (Limited military use) 1:11.25
9) DSR-1 (limited military use) 1:11.25
10) Brügger & Thomet APR308 (Limited military use) 1:11
11) FR F2 sniper rifle (Limited military use) 1:11.6
There was a change around 1990, 2000 ish from 1:12 to 1:11.25 which also correlates with the development and changes with the M118LR ammunition.
The reason this is relevant is that the PGW Coyote is a military grade precision rifle in 308. It has a thick 24" barrel. Which puts it right into the above category. Yet it is the oddball in terms of twist rate. Is this for civilian sales? As the 1:10 is a more versatile twist rate and would appeal to a greater commercial consumer base. However I see no militaries using the Coyote for a sniper rifle. The C14 Timberwolf yes but not the Coyote.
Yet, Cadex defense advertises "Cadex Defence. Specialized products intended for military applications but also available for civilians who request the best components in the industry". Their 308 Guardian rifles are again in 1:11.25 for both 20 and 24" versions. Why?
Right now we are in another transition. The 308 bolt gun is obsolete as a sniper rifle and instead the 308/7.62x51 is in use as semi auto in the DM role or as support to the sniper. A lot that I've read has indicated a possible change over to 6.5. Unknown if 6.5 CM or .260 Remington.
The newest M110A1 (HK MR308 based) has a 16" barrel, is suppressed and has been said a few times to have a 1:8 twist barrel. Could that have been the changeover to 6.5 ?
So are we about to witness yet another VHS vs Beta Max (Yes I'm that old), Blu ray vs HD, Neflix vs (who knows as there are a bunch more coming out) battle of the standards? I'm thinking 6.5 CM will win this one. But not sure yet.
Last edited:
Yes “the wall” is when the bullet goes transonic, the shock wave being dragged behind the bullet moves forward to a position along the bullet itself vs being behind, and the bullet begins to oscillate and tumble. Generally, out of a 308 case and with a 20-24” barrel it’s difficult to load a 168 fast enough to reliably stay supersonic past 800 to 900. The 168 Sierra was originally designed in the late 60’s for 300m, 3P shooting at the Olympics or Pan Am games. In fact it debuted its use at the Pan Am games. It was not intended for LR shooting.
The standard military match ammo at the time was M118 loaded with a 173 grain FMJ taken from 30-06 M72 Match ammunition. In about the mid to late 1990’s Sierra developed the 175 SMK for long range target shooting and it was also used as the projectile for improved M118LR military ammo.
I’ve done a lot of research on the M24 development back since when the rifle appeared in the late 80’s, and it did introduce both 5R rifling and the odd 1-11:25 ROT into the US long gun arsenal.
I’ve never seen or been able to find materials that rationalize the selection of the 11:25” twist rate. The 5R rifling, taken from the AK74, is said by Remington to “reduce stresses on the bullet” and that’s it. I’m sure if the material was found on reasons for the choice of that odd rate of twist, somebody like Brian Litz would understand it but me not so much.
While referring to this as a decision by the “US Military”, it’s really more the choice of the US Army, as the USMC has used, and continues to use 1-12” twist barrels in their M40A1-M40A5 series of 7.62 mm sniper rifles, and is moving to a 1-10” in the shorter barreled M40A7 series of 7.62mm rifles. They are of course also adopting a 300 Win Mag platform which may leave all the 7.62 guns for training schools at some point down the road.
Anyway just food for thought, no doubt all the examples shown are of rigs that perform very well.
Last edited:
