PGW Coyote feedback

Mystic Precision said:
FGMM - Factory ammo that shoots 1/4 MOA or better....


Jerry
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Blackhills 168 Match ammo will post 5 shot groups sub .100 in the .308 we build for Law enforcement agency's and FGMM will post .250 or less they have told us. Has to be built right to get it but ammo is certainly capable and all are on 9 twist typically and some as short as 12 inch.
 
Mystic Precision said:
FGMM - Factory ammo that shoots 1/4 MOA or better....


Jerry
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You don't have to believe me. Here's what Mike Miller says, former national FTR member of the US team and police sniper:

I am the former US FTR Team Member who had TacOps build me a sniper rifle. It was not meant forF Class as I used to be a police sniper and taught many snipers as well. F TR came later when I was too beat up to do the sniper thing

It all started over guys saying a .25 mom rifle could not be built for factory ammo. I did not know TacOps before that. Mike Resignio asked me to TxE one. He then built one for me. At that time he and I did not really know each other and had trust issues so he had another TacOps owner watch me TxE the rifle. It was every bit as accurate as he claimed with Federal 168 and 175 grain ammo. .25 mom at 100 yards was done time and time again. Understand this 100 yards is shooter,rifle and ammo. Federal Match is capable of this accuracy at 100-200 yards but because no factory ammo has velocity spreads small enough to shoot groups that small at 1000 yards

I also tested the TacOps at 1000 yards with my best built handloads designed for its chamber and barrel length It was a great shooter there as well but no rifle can be the most accurate with factory ammo for sniping and compete with rifles chambered to launch the current FTR loads of 200 grain Berger’s near 2700 FPS. That requires a special chamber and very long throats. Way too long and hot to be really considered a 308. In F TR 28-32” barrels rule

The TacOps is a great rifle with fit and finish second to no one. It is a .25 mom rifle

I am sure they could build a top level F TR rifle but it would no longer be a great sniper rifle with factory ammo. These are different creatures

With all this said there are many great rifle makers listed here. My last F TR Team rifle, which required a Non factory barrel because of team rules was barreled by GAP. That is a Savage F TR action, McMillan X it Stock, will shoot far better than I can anymore. GAP knows F TR rifles inside and out and before I shot for Savage I won a ton of matches with GAP built rifles

So in the end decide what you want. Sniper or FTR Rifle. The days of being competitive in F TR with sniper rifles are gone

Mike Resignio will build you a great rifle. If I was back as a police sniper I would use his rifle because I know it will put a round where I want it every single time
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To illuminate some of the back story of what Mike is saying in his quote, he used to be a big time naysayer of the TacOps system and the accuracy claims. Like you, he couldn't believe that a rifle could be built to shoot factory ammo with 1/4 MOA accuracy or better. Lot's of drama in the earlier years on some forums over it. Mike Miller was turned into a believer.
 
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furtaker said:
Blackhills 168 Match ammo will post 5 shot groups sub .100 in the .308 we build for Law enforcement agency's and FGMM will post .250 or less they have told us. Has to be built right to get it but ammo is certainly capable and all are on 9 twist typically and some as short as 12 inch.
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A gun can certainly be built to be a laser with specific quality factory ammo, and it has much more to do with then just the twist rate ;)
 
Mystic Precision said:
1/4MOA rifle...

1/4 MOA factory ammo...

There is a difference.

Be great to see a 5X5rds on a single target...

Jerry
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Don't believe your fellow F-classer?

This has been debated ad nauseam on other boards years ago. Lot's of good reading if you are so inclined.

Regardless, I could care less what you think about TacOps rifles. That's not the point. The point is that a rifle can be built to shoot factory ammo well, and in some cases, very well. And there's a lot more to it then just twist rates.
 
Jerry,

Since you are in here, I would like to hear what you think on Epoxy's question. You have lot's of experience with the .308 from what I can tell. Do you think the standard 1:10 twist of a PGW Coyote will shoot the FGMM 175 well? Is a 1:11.25 twist more optimal? Is the twist rate going to be his biggest factor of success for shooting his specified FGMM 175 ammo?

So far we have two top gunsmiths/manufacturers of precision rifles in the country saying a 1:10 twist is fine for what he is trying to accomplish, amongst others. Curious to hear your thoughts on the matter.
 
Mystic Precision said:
I guess you dont understand my statement...

Jerry
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I do, and I don't care to argue the point. Like I mentioned previously, this topic has been discussed ad nauseam on boards for years, it's been a pretty contentious topic. You can believe the claim or not. The point is that factory ammo can shoot pretty damn well - you can certainly make a system shoot the proper factory ammo to most peoples satisfaction if done properly.
 
kthomas said:
A gun can certainly be built to be a laser with specific quality factory ammo, and it has much more to do with then just the twist rate ;)
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Probably why I also mentioned, barrel length and even chamber, numerous times both before and after your posts. :rolleyes: You kept acting as if I never mentioned or knew anything about those variables. I had mentioned them before you did!
 
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Great to see some of the great conversations on this post, especially in regards to factory ammo. Awesome to see Black Hills Ammunition brought up.

If I could add my humble additions, I've fortunate to be able to watch and shoot two different Coyotes, both in .308, one with the McMillan stock and the other with the chassis.
The chassis version was able to post this five round target at 100m using Black Hills 175gr match.



I have a precision rifle specifically chambered for the M118LR round for shooting Black Hills ammo 175gr match, the civilian version of the M118LR, and using a1-9 twist. With only 60 rounds through it, I was able to put up this target at 100m.



Yeah... traditionally the military speced the 1-10, 1-11.25, or 1-12,for reasons that are military in nature, but looking to a purely precision application allows for some different thoughts.

 
rocnrol said:
Jerry, you're most definitely a voice of experience in this field, I'd love to hear more of your thoughts.

You had asked for a 5x5 rounds on a target, very likely I'm not understanding your question.
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I think he's challenging the claim of TacOps shooting FGMM to 1/4 MOA. His point is if it doesn't shoot a consistent 1/4 moa for five shots for five consistent groups, it's not a 1/4 moa rifle or ammo.

Maybe it will, maybe it won't. They consistently shoot tight groups with FGMM - more so then almost any other rifle out there with factory ammo. Mike Miller seems to be convinced it's a true 0.25 gun with FGMM, and he knows how to shoot and has the background and trophy case to back it up (trophies mean a lot to some people here). Like Jerry, he would argue this same point all the time until he finally got his hands on a TacOps rifle. He's since done a complete 180 on his stance.

The exact accuracy of a TacOps rifle, and how you want to define that is beside the point. The point is that a rifle can be built to shoot a specific factory ammo well, and in some cases very well - better then a lot may suspect. There's a lot of work that goes into it, and twist rate is no where near the top of the list of criteria to get a rifle to shoot a specific loaded ammo well.

A rifle can be built to shoot FGMM well, and it doesn't require 1:11.25 twist to do so.

The reason I brought up TacOps specifically is that they are doing exactly what Epoxy wants, to shoot FGMM ammo well, and they do it better then most anyone else (and much better then his military examples). And they do it with a 1:10 twist.
 
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kthomas said:
I think he's challenging the claim of TacOps shooting FGMM to 1/4 MOA. His point is if it doesn't shoot a consistent 1/4 moa for five shots for five consistent groups, it's not a 1/4 moa rifle or ammo.

Maybe it will, maybe it won't. They consistently shoot tight groups with FGMM - more so then almost any other rifle out there with factory ammo. Mike Miller seems to be convinced it's a true 0.25 gun with FGMM, and he knows how to shoot and has the background and trophy case to back it up (trophies mean a lot to some people here). Like Jerry, he would argue this same point all the time until he finally got his hands on a TacOps rifle. He's since done a complete 180 on his stance.

The exact accuracy of a TacOps rifle, and how you want to define that is beside the point. The point is that a rifle can be built to shoot a specific factory ammo well, and in some cases very well - better then a lot may suspect. There's a lot of work that goes into it, and twist rate is no where near the top of the list of criteria to get a rifle to shoot a specific loaded ammo well.

A rifle can be built to shoot FGMM well, and it doesn't require 1:11.25 twist to do so.

The reason I brought up TacOps specifically is that they are doing exactly what Epoxy wants, to shoot FGMM ammo well, and they do it better then most anyone else (and much better then his military examples). And they do it with a 1:10 twist.
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KThomas, thanks for clarification on the target / grouping request. That makes perfect sense, and something I'll work towards!

Great information for the rest of your post too,thanks 👍
 
kthomas said:
I think he's challenging the claim of TacOps shooting FGMM to 1/4 MOA. His point is if it doesn't shoot a consistent 1/4 moa for five shots for five consistent groups, it's not a 1/4 moa rifle or ammo.

Maybe it will, maybe it won't. They consistently shoot tight groups with FGMM - more so then almost any other rifle out there with factory ammo. Mike Miller seems to be convinced it's a true 0.25 gun with FGMM, and he knows how to shoot and has the background and trophy case to back it up (trophies mean a lot to some people here). Like Jerry, he would argue this same point all the time until he finally got his hands on a TacOps rifle. He's since done a complete 180 on his stance.

The exact accuracy of a TacOps rifle, and how you want to define that is beside the point. The point is that a rifle can be built to shoot a specific factory ammo well, and in some cases very well - better then a lot may suspect. There's a lot of work that goes into it, and twist rate is no where near the top of the list of criteria to get a rifle to shoot a specific loaded ammo well.

A rifle can be built to shoot FGMM well, and it doesn't require 1:11.25 twist to do so.

The reason I brought up TacOps specifically is that they are doing exactly what Epoxy wants, to shoot FGMM ammo well, and they do it better then most anyone else (and much better then his military examples). And they do it with a 1:10 twist.
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When I did my research previously on the M24, the accuracy requirement I read was .35 moa from a machine rest. That accuracy had to be under for up to 10,000 rounds. That was for the sniper rifle competition that the M24 won to get the contract for Remington. My groups with my 5R rifles if they are in fact from the M24 barrels, would tend to support this as a possibility. Although likely they only do 3 round groups and not the 5 I did.

The Tactical Ops ie Tange 51 etc seem to be built for the 168 Federal Gold. I actually prefer 175. So it's not what I'm looking for at all.

First off police agencies use all kinds of different ammo. 168 federal gold is a standard, however many use specialized for glass. There is no one standard and the ammo can change even depending on the environment for the scene. So the all purpose 1:10 twist makes sense. Even the 1:12 if 168 Federal Gold is the only ammo allowed by policy. Marines also use different ammunition and mission criteria. The one that is the most standard is the US army. The current precision round for the US military in 308 is 175 smk in the M118LR.

[ Let's keep in mind that I have stated 20-24" I prefer 1:11.25 twist. I even mentioned chambers. The PGW Coyote for instance is a 24" barrel.

Let's see what GAP offers currently for sale, shall we. You mentioned GAP rifles as high end. They have a well known reputation as well.

Again as I've mentioned numerous times already 20-24" is what I like to shoot with 175 smk loaded to M118LR specs (the older slightly hotter version).

Review including relevant ammunition that I shoot, ie 175 smk in the 43 (Federal gold) to 43.4 range. Take out the spaces: ww w.6mmbr.com/gunweek097.html

GAP rifles offered with their 3/8 moa guarantee vs the 1/2 moa

1) Hospitalizer available in both 1:11.25 twist and 1:10 with 24" barrel, however the 1:10 seems to have a heavier contour to achieve the 3/8 MOA guarantee .

2) The Crusader 23" barrel length 308 Winchester chamber with 1:11.25 twist rate. 3/8 MOA guarantee with Match Grade Ammo

3) FBI HRT Rifle 22 inch Bartlein stainless 5R barrel, 1:11.25 twist. 3/8 MOA guarantee


Now lets look at their 1/2 moa guarantee rifles:


1) Gladius 18" 1:10 twist. Short barrel, designed for suppressor use. Fair enough. 1/2 moa guarantee.

2) US ARmy M24. It's a clone. 24" 1:11.25 twist. 1/2 MOA guarantee

3) USMC M40A5 1:10 twist with 25" barrel. Both a clone and with a 1" longer barrel. Interesting... 1/2 MOA guarantee

4) UsMC M40A3 1:12 twist with 25" barrel. 1/2 moa guarantee

5) USMC M40A1 1:12 Twist with 25" barrel 1/2 moa guarantee

Another note, their semi auto AR308 is also in 1:11.25 the GAP-10.

For a 1:10 twist rifle, they seem to utilize either a 1" longer barrel ie 25" vs 24" or with their custom it's a heavier specialized profile. The rifles that offer their best accuracy guarantee in 308 are standard in 1:11.25.

PGW offers the Coyote rifle that I'm interested in as standard with a 1:10 twist and a 24" barrel. GAP offers their 1:10 twist in 25" with only 1 of the 3/8 moa rifles being available in 1:10 twist as an option with all of them being offered in 1:11.25 as standard. PGW has advised that they utilized that twist rate due to subsonic suppressed ammunition for military clients. Let's go out on a limb and guess special forces is using them, UK maybe. Different mission parameters other than pure accuracy with one ammunition type.

Summary:

So if I wanted to buy a 24" barrel 308 from GAP with their best 3/8 moa guarantee it would be one of three custom rifles that all come as a 1:11.25 twist rate as standard.

I thank PGW for offering me what I want with that twist rate and their 24" barrel. It's exactly what I want. Apparently GAP agrees with me. As do all the other companies I've listed as examples.
 
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The 25” barrel length on USMC spec clone guns is to duplicate the barrel length used by the USMC. The USMC arrives at what is commonly measured as 25” as the USMC Precision Weapons Shop ( formerly MTU) measures 24” from the front surface of the recoil lug on Remington 700 based (M40A1/A3/A5) rifles they build.

The conventional means of measuring a 700 series barrel length for most smiths is from the bolt face, hence the odd 25” measurement found on PWS built guns, or guns built by others to closely resemble them.
 
Lots of false equivalencies in there. Lots wrong in your post, but I don't see any further point in trying to convince you that you can use a 1:10 twist.

Your understanding of internal ballistics is fundamentally flawed, and you make a lot of assumptions on twist rates and ammos based on your observations, which are equating to false equivalencies.

While there are rifles that are built with a 1:10 twist that absolutey hammer factory 175 FGMM ammo, it doesn't fit your confirmation bias so it's obviously wrong. Gotcha.

Just remember that at the end of the day that you asked if 1:10 will be as accurate with factory 175 FGMM as a 1:11.25 twist. The answer is yes (all things else equal). Almost everyone has said so. There's plenty of evidence in here to suggest so. From two top gunsmiths, some people with pictures of groups from their experience, to my anecdotal evidence of a company that makes very accurate rifles that does exactly what you want to accomplish, but with a 1:10 twist.

No one said anything is wrong with a 1:11.25 twist, so if you have to have it then go for it. You are just self imposing limitations on what gear you run, at the end of the day that's no one's problem but your own. If you aren't open to hearing anything that opposes something you have already made your mind up on, then next time don't even bother asking. We can save everyone a headache in the future.

PS - just buy a GAP then since they make exactly what you want 🙂
 
kthomas said:
Lots of false equivalencies in there. Lots wrong in your post, but I don't see any further point in trying to convince you that you can use a 1:10 twist.

Your understanding of internal ballistics is fundamentally flawed, and you make a lot of assumptions on twist rates and ammos based on your observations, which are equating to false equivalencies.

While there are rifles that are built with a 1:10 twist that absolutey hammer factory 175 FGMM ammo, it doesn't fit your confirmation bias so it's obviously wrong. Gotcha.

Just remember that at the end of the day that you asked if 1:10 will be as accurate with factory 175 FGMM as a 1:11.25 twist. The answer is yes (all things else equal). Almost everyone has said so. There's plenty of evidence in here to suggest so. From two top gunsmiths, some people with pictures of groups from their experience, to my anecdotal evidence of a company that makes very accurate rifles that does exactly what you want to accomplish, but with a 1:10 twist.

No one said anything is wrong with a 1:11.25 twist, so if you have to have it then go for it. You are just self imposing limitations on what gear you run, at the end of the day that's no one's problem but your own. If you aren't open to hearing anything that opposes something you have already made your mind up on, then next time don't even bother asking. We can save everyone a headache in the future.

PS - just buy a GAP then since they make exactly what you want ��
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There is plenty of evidence to also suggest that 1:11.25 is the optimal twist rate for 168-175 depending on the barrel length. Again, you seem to conveniently ignore that.

PS: I'll buy what I want. I'd have some choice words to say to you in person if you ever tried to dictate to me what I should buy or took that attitude with me. Spend your own money, don't try to tell me how to spend mine.

I think we're done here. Good luck and take care.
 
I'm not trying to dictate what you buy. I couldn't care less what you buy. Sounds like you wouldn't be happy with anything different then a 1:11.25 twist. Buy a 1:11.25 twist, it doesn't effect me any :d. In fact I've never tried to steer you away from the 1:11.25, but was just trying to point out that a 1:10 twist would absolutely work for what you are trying to achieve.

I personally believe you are focusing too much on twist rate and ignoring the other factors that will make a much bigger impact on what you are trying to achieve.

You are the one that asked in the first place, and then decided to argue with everyone that said the 1:10 twist would be fine. From people who have 1:10 twist .308's shooting 175's with success to those that build them. In some cases some people provided evidence that factory ammo built to mimick M118LR (175 FGMM and Blackhills) shot very, very well out of 1:10 and 1:9 twist rifles. For whatever reason, because it doesn't fit the narrative that you have built up in your head you have chosen to disregard and argue with those people.

I thought it was an interesting discussion, and I'm sorry you took it personal and feel like I am dictating what you should buy. I am not. I never once tried to steer you away from 1:11.25 twist, but merely pointed out that a 1:10 twist would absolutey work to what you want to achieve, since you asked. I couldn't care less what twist you buy, doesn't effect my life one bit in the end. You were the one originally asking the question, so I figured you would at least be open to conversation about it and hearing how people are using 1:10 twist to great effect with factory loaded M118LR ammo like FGMM. I was wrong, obviously you only wanted to hear people confirm the belief you already had.

Enjoy your new rifle, PGW makes nice rifles. A Coyote used to be my dream rifle. I hope you shoot that 1:11.25 twist so well that you squeek every bit of optimized performance out of that 1:11.25 twist. Happy shooting :cool:
 
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